Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Sirius' Heir

  1. #1
    Third Year Ravenclaw
    Bumper Cars in Gringotts
    J Raven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In the Restricted Section...with Sirius
    Posts
    83

    Sirius' Heir

    I was talking this over with my friend and we wondered who would legally be Sirius' heir, ignoring the fact that he left everything he had to Harry. After much argument we found that we couldn't decide between Teddy Lupin and Draco Malfoy, assuming that the order of inheritance favours all males above females.

    Personally I believe it is Teddy, as Bellatrix, being the oldest sister (as listed in age order, I assume, on the Black Family Tree) had no children so it would pass to Andromeda's line (even though she was disowned, it obviously doesn't matter since Sirius inherited Gimmauld Place even though he was disowned). Travelling through Andromeda's line, Teddy is the first male so would therefore be the heir.

    My friend disagrees and states that since Draco is older than Teddy, he is the heir, even though Narcissa is younger than Andromeda. Especially since Sirius died before Teddy was born.

    Any thoughts?
    Banner photographed by me and edited by xBeccaxBlackx
    It was worth the chocolate : )


    "One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching"
    Gerard Way

  2. #2
    Fourth Year Ravenclaw
    Earning Points for Sheer Dumb Luck
    obsessed_with_jo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    174
    I think it would have to be Draco. The most important point here is that Teddy was not born when Sirius died. Someone would need to have inherited from Sirius directly after his death, and that person would be Draco. After Teddy was born, it wouldn't matter if he was technically a more favorable choice, because Draco would have already inherited--does that make sense?

    Didn't Dumbledore say something in HBP about the male line dying out with Sirius? I don't know if inheritances would have passed to Draco or Teddy anyway, since they're related to the Blacks through their mothers. But my knowledge of British inheritances comes solely through watching Downton Abbey, so take that with a grain of salt
    Eliza

  3. #3
    Queen of Foals Slytherin
    Unspeakable
    Where are you Wetherby?
    the opaleye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Mirkwood
    Posts
    1,572
    I'm at work so I don't have access to the books but I seem to remember Dumbledore mentioning how Bellatrix was technically the next in line to inherit and that was why they needed to test that Harry had really inherited the property by summoning Kreacher. I could be wrong but that is what I immediately thought of. Maybe check out that chapter of HBP.

    Lovely banner by Minna! Icon from toreadabook on lj.

  4. #4
    Fourth Year Ravenclaw
    Earning Points for Sheer Dumb Luck
    obsessed_with_jo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    174
    Quote Originally Posted by the opaleye View Post
    I'm at work so I don't have access to the books but I seem to remember Dumbledore mentioning how Bellatrix was technically the next in line to inherit and that was why they needed to test that Harry had really inherited the property by summoning Kreacher. I could be wrong but that is what I immediately thought of. Maybe check out that chapter of HBP.
    Ooh, that's a good point; I forgot about that scene. I don't have my book either, so I don't remember the specifics of why she was next in line, but it's definitely in that second chapter of HBP.

    Are you thinking of using this in a story, J Raven, or is it just out of curiosity?
    Eliza

  5. #5
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
    Kill the Spare
    Equinox Chick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    using rare and complicated words
    Posts
    2,977
    According to UK law (let's assume that the wizarding world follows this for a moment) if Sirius died intestate (without a will), then his possessions would be split equally between Bellatrix, Andromeda and Narcissa. If their parents were still alive, (or rathere thir father because he's the Black relative) then he'd take the money. Draco and Tonks wouldn't be entitled to anything, because the presumption is that they'd inherit their mothers' share.

    Heirs born after the death of someone are not legally entitled to anything, so Teddy has no claim whatsoever at the moment of Sirius' death.

    However, the Black estate appears to be entailed by primogeniture (inheritance by the firstborn). This could mean males have priority, but could simply be the eldest inherits.



    Quote Originally Posted by Julia
    I'm at work so I don't have access to the books but I seem to remember Dumbledore mentioning how Bellatrix was technically the next in line to inherit and that was why they needed to test that Harry had really inherited the property by summoning Kreacher.
    Yes, according to the books, Dumbledore says 'the eldest of Sirius' living relatives' meaning Bellatrix. If she'd inherited, then after her death the house would pass to her husband. Although, if he had died before her, then it would pass to Andromeda, then Teddy via Tonks. Draco would only inherit if Andromeda died before Bellatrix and Narcissa.

    ~Carole
    Last edited by Equinox Chick; 03-12-2012 at 09:17 AM.
    I'm a BARMAID. I write. I drabble. I duel. I poet. I'm a BADGER!!!

    Banner by minnabird

  6. #6
    Fifth Year Ravenclaw
    Hatching Dragon's Eggs
    Northumbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Northumberland
    Posts
    261
    Carole is (almost) completely correct. What she describes is right, so far as it goes. However, based on what Dumbledore said, I believe that the Black line actually appears to follow male-preference cognatic primogeniture. This is the system we use to decide who gets the British throne (although that may change soon).

    Basically, the eldest male inherits. Only if there is no male does the female line gain any precedence and only when an entire line dies out does a sibling, rather than an offspring, inherit.

    Whether or not Bellatrix predeceased her husband is immaterial, as he is not of the blood, and therefore can't inherit. If my correction to Carole is correct, then because they are childless, upon Bella's death, the line passes to her sister, Andromeda. For Draco to inherit, Andromeda, Teddy and Narcissa would have to be dead. Certainly, that's the way I calculated who would get the title "head of the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" (oops, just given away the ending to one of my stories).

    Wills, it seems, can overcome this, but Dumbledore wasn't certain. Regardless of wills, titles cannot be gifted, they must follow the rules.

    -N-

    First Competition Banner I've won. For: Killers

  7. #7
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
    Kill the Spare
    Equinox Chick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    using rare and complicated words
    Posts
    2,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil
    Whether or not Bellatrix predeceased her husband is immaterial, as he is not of the blood, and therefore can't inherit.
    I don't think it's immaterial. He is her spouse and thus inherits her possessions. We're not actually talking about aristocracy here because clearly Sirius is able to 'will away' his property, so primogeniture would only exist if the person dies intestate. If you look at our royal family, they're not able to will away crown properties, and neither are the majority of the aristocracy in this country. If Rodolphus then dies, then it could all go to Rabastan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    However, the Black estate appears to be entailed by primogeniture (inheritance by the firstborn). This could mean males have priority, but could simply be the eldest inherits.
    On reflection the fact that it can be willed away suggests that it wasn't governed by primogeniture as Dumbledore thought. Clearly Dumbledore didn't think the will would work, but he was wrong. His words are
    Quote Originally Posted by Will and Won't HBP
    'Black Family tradition decreed that the house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of Black .... it is nevertheless possible that some spell or enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure that it cannot be ownwd by anyone other than a pure-blood.'
    So it's tradition but obviously not enshrined in law if there are no male heirs left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil
    Wills, it seems, can overcome this, but Dumbledore wasn't certain. Regardless of wills, titles cannot be gifted, they must follow the rules.
    Wills cannot overturn entails and title rights, you're correct, and thus the Black estate clearly does not follow those rules. Harry was not only unrelated, he was a half-blood - almost the worst kind of inheritor for the noble house of Black.
    Dumbledore assumed the Black estate followed those rules when clearly it didn't, therefore normal intestacy rules would follow. Bellatrix's heir is her husband. If he's dead and she makes no will, then it would -actually - be split between Andromeda and Narcissa.

    ~Carole~
    I'm a BARMAID. I write. I drabble. I duel. I poet. I'm a BADGER!!!

    Banner by minnabird

  8. #8
    Fifth Year Ravenclaw
    Hatching Dragon's Eggs
    Northumbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Northumberland
    Posts
    261
    Carole

    I see that I didn't make myself clear, You are perfectly correct in your assumptions about inheritence. Had Sirius died intestate, then everything you say follows logically.

    However, if the title "noble and most ancient" follows primogeniture then it falls to Teddy. (However, the fact that you're using the term "entails" means that you know as much, if not more about this than I do, so I'll shut up now).

    -N-

    First Competition Banner I've won. For: Killers

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •