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Thread: International Customs

  1. #1
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    International Customs

    The countries I'm concerned with are France and England, which obviously share a border.

    Would wizards be able to Aoparate over such distances? I'm keeping the Department of Magical Cooperation in mind here, and I'm trying to use GOF as a reference.

    Would wizards of Muggle descent or Squibs carry passports? Would wands be the only required idenification for wizards?

    Would the Floo Powder or 'fireside chats' work between nations? What would be the distance imitations?

    Also, in case of gathering suspicion from Muggles, would wizards carry forged passports?

    This is placed during the First War, so what are additional steps that would be taken, if any, to ensure the safety of public?

    Oh yeah, and is there need for a currency exchange? Are Galleons and the other currencies like the modern day concept of the Euro? (I hope so, for that would be easier.)

    I checked the Lexicon, and I'll check again, but who was the Head of the Department of International Cooperation during the First War?

    Would there have been summit conferences with the International Conferation of Wizards to discuss the looming threat of the Dark Lord or would Britian have kept the threat within her borders?

    This is a lot. My apologies. Any thoughts?

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    Would wizards be able to Apparate over such distances? I'm keeping the Department of Magical Cooperation in mind here, and I'm trying to use GOF as a reference.

    There is no consensus for how for Apparition would work. In theory a wizard in London could imagine Apparting into Paris, if he knew where he was going then... why not? The only restrictions seem to be the ability of the wizard or witch to concentrate.

    Would wizards of Muggle descent or Squibs carry passports? Would wands be the only required idenification for wizards?

    Hermoine would have a passport because she traveled with her parents to France. But if Muggle-borns were not traveling in the Muggle method, they wouldn't need a passport. As for Squibs, there would probably no record of their existence in the Muggle world at all, so if they wanted to travel, they would have to go with someone who could take them, unless they could use Floo.

    Would the Floo Powder or 'fireside chats' work between nations? What would be the distance imitations?

    I have always presumed that Floo networks are connected by nations, as in the British Ministry of Magic runs their Floo network, the French run their own, etc. There is no reason why it couldn't work between nations if they set it up. You can make up what distance limitations you like, though I imagine it gets increasingly uncomfortable and dangerous the farther you go.

    Also, in case of gathering suspicion from Muggles, would wizards carry forged passports?

    Wizards don't seem bright enough to think of this. Pure-bloods probably wouldn't even realize that Muggles have passports. I imagine that the wizarding world is more or less like pre-WWI Europe - no passports, no limitations on travel. If you have the money, then go where you want.

    This is placed during the First War, so what are additional steps that would be taken, if any, to ensure the safety of public?

    I'm not sure.

    Oh yeah, and is there need for a currency exchange? Are Galleons and the other currencies like the modern day concept of the Euro? (I hope so, for that would be easier.)

    There is no consensus about this. If you think it's like the Euro as in it's the official currency of many countries, then fine. Personally, I think that's boring. If you think the Galleon is an international standard like the British pound sterling in the pre-WWI days, then other people will accept Galleons but they don't necessarily use it themselves.

    I checked the Lexicon, and I'll check again, but who was the Head of the Department of International Cooperation during the First War?

    No clue.

    Would there have been summit conferences with the International Conferation of Wizards to discuss the looming threat of the Dark Lord or would Britian have kept the threat within her borders?

    There appears to be no international involvement in the Second War, so perhaps the wizarding world is highly nationalistic and turned inwards. Do what you think is best, though it's unlikely that the ICW did anything besides talk since it's never mentioned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri
    The countries I'm concerned with are France and England, which obviously share a border.

    Would wizards be able to Aoparate over such distances? I'm keeping the Department of Magical Cooperation in mind here, and I'm trying to use GOF as a reference.
    London to Paris is about 210 miles in a straight line. London to Edinburgh is about 330. So, unless crossing the sea actually causes Magical interference of some sort, then I’d say yes. Besides, the English Channel (or la Manche if you’re French) is only 21 miles wide at its narrowest point (between Dover and Calais). You can actually see the other side on a good day. People even swim it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri
    Would wizards of Muggle descent or Squibs carry passports? Would wands be the only required idenification for wizards?
    I think you have free rein to decide (but see below).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri
    Would the Floo Powder or 'fireside chats' work between nations? What would be the distance imitations?
    Harry and the Weasley’s used Floo powder to get back to Hogwarts from London in OotP. We know that Hogwarts is in the Highlands of Scotland. London to Aberdeen is 500 miles, therefore we know that you can travel at least 500 miles by Floo. Again, unless you want add a crossing water restriction you could easily reach the Low Countries, you could reach Switzerland and a good chunk of Germany too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri
    Also, in case of gathering suspicion from Muggles, would wizards carry forged passports?

    This is placed during the First War, so what are additional steps that would be taken, if any, to ensure the safety of public?
    I wasn’t certain whether you needed a passport in 1914. I’m still not certain. The earliest “Licences to Pass Beyond the Seas” seem to be 16th Century and the paperwork required to “Pass through a Port” seems to have been formalised into a Passport sometime later. I did a very quick check and found this: up to 1898 passports are in the form of single sheets folded in four: thereafter (until 1923, when the modern book form was introduced) they are eight-page folded books. Whatever a “passport” was, don’t assume it was similar to modern passports.

    I also found this too (the upside of years of playing the old Call of Cthulhu rpg ("Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn") is the ability to find reference articles for the 1920’s).
    On 30 November 1915 an Order in Council was issued to amend the Defence of the Realm (Consolidation) Regulations of 1914. Among the amendments was the addition of a new regulation requiring that 'A person coming from or intending to proceed to any place out of the United Kingdom as a passenger shall not, without the special permission of a Secretary of State, land or embark at any port in the United Kingdom unless he has in his possession a valid passport issued to him not more than two years previously, by or on behalf of the Government of the country of which he is a subject or a citizen ...'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri
    Oh yeah, and is there need for a currency exchange? Are Galleons and the other currencies like the modern day concept of the Euro? (I hope so, for that would be easier.)
    At the Quidditch world cup there seemed to be some odd currency’s in use, I seem to remember a “gold coin the size of a dinner plate” a Galleon isn’t that big, otherwise Harry would have needed a wheelbarrow (at least) for his Triwizard winnings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri
    I checked the Lexicon, and I'll check again, but who was the Head of the Department of International Cooperation during the First War?
    Pass, next question please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuri
    Would there have been summit conferences with the International Conferation of Wizards to discuss the looming threat of the Dark Lord or would Britian have kept the threat within her borders?

    This is a lot. My apologies. Any thoughts?
    I don’t know, how old is the International Conferation of Wizards? Do we know?

    JKR models a lot of Wizarding Organisations on the real world. The League of Nations was created after the Great War, and the UN after WWII. What was the kick that created the ICW?

    -N-

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    The countries I'm concerned with are France and England, which obviously share a border.
    They don't share a border. England shares land borders with Scotland and Wales (although we don't operate customs to go from one country to the other). England is separated from France by the sea, although we did hold onto Calais for a while (I think Mary I lost it). The United Kingdom shares a border with Republic of Ireland, but that's a different situation. France is a 'neighbouring country' and sea borders are much harder to define. (You get into the whole International Waters debate) The customs affecting the French coming into UK/England are the same as any other country.

    Theoretically, you could count the Channel tunnel as a border, but that wasn't completed until the 90's. Or if you count Gibralta as a UK territory, then the UK shares a border with Spain ... but that's not England.

    I checked the Lexicon, and I'll check again, but who was the Head of the Department of International Cooperation during the First War?
    I think that as long as you don't make it Barty Crouch snr (because he was shifted sideways to fill this vacancy instead of being given the top job) or Cornelius Fudge because he seemed extraordinarily inept with the foreign delegates, then you have free rein. Could have been a Death Eater who got sent to Azkaban, that way there's a vacancy for Crouch.

    Also, in case of gathering suspicion from Muggles, would wizards carry forged passports?

    This is placed during the First War, so what are additional steps that would be taken, if any, to ensure the safety of public?


    Quote Originally Posted by Neil
    I wasn’t certain whether you needed a passport in 1914. I’m still not certain.
    I think Kuri means the First War as in Voldemort from 1971-1981 and not the First World War (1914-1918)
    Um, well, people on the whole don't carry their passports or any id around with them. I guess drivers carry their driving licence but it's not a requirement by law. If you are stopped by the police when driving and don't have your licence, then you're reqired to produce it at a police station within seven days (or thereabouts) but you don't have to have an id card on you.

    Would there have been summit conferences with the International Conferation of Wizards to discuss the looming threat of the Dark Lord or would Britian have kept the threat within her borders?
    There are two sides to this. Certainly when Grindelwald was at the height of his powers, then there must have been some sort of International agreement because he was operating in the Germanic countries and Dumbledore was the one called upon to defeat him. Also, during the second war, Dumbledore was voted out of the ICW for 'rumour-mongering'. So it does suggest that Voldemort had been a problem for Foreign countries as well. (Karakarov was a DE so it's not confined to UK)
    You could say that the Ministry decided to keep it national, but on the whole I'd say the ICW did discuss it but was probably fairly useless. All waffle and debate and nothing actually done .... sounds rather a lot like the old League of Nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Equinox Chick
    I think Kuri means the First War as in Voldemort from 1971-1981 and not the First World War (1914-1918)
    Oops

    It's the closet historian in me. I tend to look much too far back.

    So (to spare my blushes) I'll agree with Carole and add some more information.

    These days you don't need a passport to travel between EU countries, provided that the country has signed the Shengen agreement. We haven't (and neither have the Irish and a few others) so we must always use ours. Switzerland (though it isn't in the EU) has signed Shengen, as I discovered when I walked down a French side street in Saint-Gingolph a few years ago and found myself in Switzerland.

    No one in the UK would carry a passport as ID (mine's in a cupboard somewhere) and they probably wouldn't have any ID at all in the 1970's.

    These days a Driving Licence (NOTE its a Driving, not a Drivers, Licence) has a photograph on it, but that's relatively recent. It started in 1998, as part of an EU system to regularise the licences. There were protests at the time, because we didn't like the idea of ID cards (we still don't).

    Plastic Credit Card sized Driving Licences (without a photograph) were introduced in 1973, but if you held a licence before then you didn't have to renew it. The earlier licences were issued locally.

    I have my Dad's first licence, its a little red cardboard thing with name, address and details of the types of vehicle he's allowed to drive. It seems ro be a manually typed form glued into a folder, it is useless as an ID card, and would be very easy to fake.

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    Would wizards be able to Aoparate over such distances? I'm keeping the Department of Magical Cooperation in mind here, and I'm trying to use GOF as a reference.
    I believe it is in DH that Voldemort flies for a distance until he is close enough to Apparate. That distance is not clearly defined. I think it is when he is returning from killing Grindlewald, which would mean somewhere in what could loosely be defined as Germany, but I can't find the exact page. I don't recall it saying what he was flying over when he decided he was close enough.

    GOF had a lot of international Portkeys.


    It seems to me that if one is Half-blood there is a good likelihood one's birth might have been registered with the Muggles, and if one is a Squibb that someone - perhaps someone in the Ministry, or perhaps more likely the sort of person Mundungus could hook you up with - could have forged you Muggle papers so that you could work outside the magical community. However, I do not recall this ever being actually dealt with.
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  7. #7
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    Would wizards be able to Apparate over such distances?
    They probably could, but it would be pretty difficult. Of course, as AidaLuthien said, it would only be limited by the witch or wizard's concentration. Still, it would probably be easier, and much safer, to use a Portkey, like they did at the World Cup in GoF. If people wanted to escape England during the First War, I bet the Ministry would have provided them with Portkeys.

    Would wizards of Muggle descent or Squibs carry passports? Would wands be the only required idenification for wizards?
    If Muggle-borns were trying to escape Voldemort's reign of terror, it would probably be the safest way to go, traveling the way Muggles do. AidaLuthien also pointed out that Purebloods would probably be unaware of Muggle methods of travel. It would be a good way for Muggle-borns being hunted to get out of the country undetected.

    This is placed during the First War, so what are additional steps that would be taken, if any, to ensure the safety of public?
    I think if you take a look back in HBP, and see those little purple leaflets the Ministry sent to Harry, you'll get some idea of what the Ministry did.

    Would there have been summit conferences with the International Confederation of Wizards to discuss the looming threat of the Dark Lord or would Britain have kept the threat within her borders?
    I'm sure there would have been some kind of meeting with the ICW, since if Voldemort was killing off Muggles. The First War was a huge deal, partly because the Wizarding World was on the brink of exposure. If one part was discovered, it would only be a matter of time before others were too.

    I hope that's useful!

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    Would wizards be able to Apparate over such distances?
    Quote Originally Posted by georgeisholey
    They probably could, but it would be pretty difficult. Of course, as AidaLuthien said, it would only be limited by the witch or wizard's concentration.
    See ProfPosky's post above. Voldemort could fly. He was interrogating Grindelwald when Bellatrix summoned him (Malfor Manor). He killed Grindelwald and then flew back.

    Here are the exact words.

    Quote Originally Posted by DH, Malfoy Manor, page 363
    Harry knew it; his scar was bursting with the pain of it, and he could feel Voldemort flying through the sky from far away, over a dark and stormy sea, and soon he would be close enough to Apparate to them, and Harry could see no way out.
    If Voldemort can't concentrate to Apparate long distances, then quite frankly, no one can. I'm not sure which sea they're talking about. I always presumed that they meant the English Channel, but ... I'm not sure where Nurmengard is (I thought Germany because it sounds like Nuremberg).

    This could well mean that you cannot Apparate over long stretches of water. If you could, then Voldemort would have been at Malfoy Manor sooner.

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    Of course, Voldemort's inability to Apparate to Nurmengard might be more related to Nurmengard having Anti-Apparition wards of some kind than his inability to actually Apparate somewhere.

    Oh, and Neil before the First World War, people didn't need passports. One of my professors is very adamant about this because the world was connected, he argues, more connected than now. An Englishman in London could wake up one morning, decide he wants to go Paris for lunch, get on a boat and do it. No passport, no paperwork, and for an Englishman, no currency change because everyone accepted pound sterling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aida
    Of course, Voldemort's inability to Apparate to Nurmengard might be more related to Nurmengard having Anti-Apparition wards of some kind than his inability to actually Apparate somewhere.
    He's flying out of Nurmengard and not to and Harry clearly sees him flying over the water until he's near enough to Apparate. It has to take him some time. He says it's a stormy sea, so that's not a castle surrounded by a moat. He could be in the Baltic, but seems to me, that he needs to get to land before he can Apparate. Before then, he's been gliding around the castle which is built onto a rock. There probably are anti Apparition wards on it, but that doesn't negate the line from the book 'until he was close enough to Apparate.'

    The passports issue changed in UK in 1914

    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian newspaper 2006
    It was in the early 20th century that passports as we would recognise them today began to be used. The first modern British passport, the product of the British Nationality and Status Aliens Act 1914, consisted of a single page, folded into eight and held together with a cardboard cover. It was valid for two years and, as well as a photograph and signature, featured a personal description, including details such as "shape of face", "complexion" and "features". The entry on this last category might read something like: "Forehead: broad. Nose: large. Eyes: small." Remarkably, some travellers claimed to find this dehumanising. Following an agreement among the League of Nations to standardise passports, the famous "old blue" was issued in 1920. Apart from a few adjustments to its duration and security features, the old blue remained a steady symbol of the touring Briton until it gradually began to be replaced by the burgundy-coloured European version in 1988.
    However, papers issued to people proving they were English and thus entitled to 'safe passage' have been around since Henry V - round about 1415. No, it's not a passport, and wasn't strictly necessary, but it was around as a form of identification and with a royal warrant. Neil didn't say you needed a passport, he said that documents existed for travel - that's a different issue. It was about safe passage and 'passing through ports' not about legalities.
    As your professor says, that came in in 1914 (in UK anyway)

    I do think that if an Englishman just decided to take off to Europe and landed in provincial Italy, or Bulgaria, they're not going to accept his money. They wouldn't know what it was, for one thing. Paris and Rome, oui. Le petit village dans le remote part de France - Non.

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