Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Why the delay?

  1. #1
    Seventh Year Gryffindor
    Lockhart Removed My Bones!
    welshdevondragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    London/ Newcastle
    Posts
    593

    Why the delay?

    Okay- looking through the forums the consensus seems to be that Peter had been a Death Eater/ spy for a while before Lily and James died.

    The Fidelius charm was cast immediately before their death- I think it's less than a week or something like that.

    SO for over a year Harry Potter was alive, protected by the Order yes, but not protected by a Fidelius charm? So why did Peter not turn over their location to Voldemort before? Indeed Voldemort knew about the prophecy before Harry's birth so why does he wait until what, according to the prophecy, is the only threat to him, is nearly a year and a half old before actually attempting to kill him? Surely, given how by all accounts everything else was working in Voldie's favour, this would be top priority? So why the delay?

    I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but it's confusing me.
    Alex x
    Banner by Minna.

  2. #2
    Seventh Year Gryffindor
    Lockhart Removed My Bones!
    welshdevondragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    London/ Newcastle
    Posts
    593
    I thought we did know when the prophecy was made. The language of the prophecy is all in the future tense, therefore surely it means it was made pre-July 1980.

    Although I agree Snape may have been mulling it over in his mind, I think the chances are that he didn't. If he had the slightest suspicion that the prophecy could apply to Lily than surely he would not have told Voldemort about it? That may be a question for the character forums and not here.

    It sort of makes sense that Voldemort initially dismissed it, but given he trusts Snape to spy on Dumbledore whilst Dumbledore thinks Snape is spying for him, I think he would trust Snape's judgement regards whether the prophecy was genuine or the Trelawney's ramblings.
    Banner by Minna.

  3. #3
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
    Kill the Spare
    Equinox Chick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    using rare and complicated words
    Posts
    2,983
    Good points raised.

    Okay, we don't know when the Prophecy was made. There isn't a canon date on this, although the Lexicon has hypothesized, but that's not conclusive.

    It was a rainy/stormy night in Hogsmeade according to Dumbledore, but we're talking Scotland and that could be the summer.

    Snape says he became a teacher 16 years ago in OOTP. That could put his start date at Sept 1980 when Harry was already born.

    We don't know when the Prophecy was told, we also don't know when Snape told Voldemort (he could have been mulling it over for a month or so) and we don't know when they worked out that both Lily and Alice had children at the end of July.

    It wasn't until Voldemort decided that Harry was a threat that the Order knew Harry was in danger. He may well have dismissed it as inconsequential when he first heard it. Remember, he set no store by fairytales so would he pay much attention to Sybil Trelawney's ravings?

    Not sure I've helped much. Perhaps they had better protection before the Fidelius Charm and the Charm made them lax.

    ~Carole~
    I'm a BARMAID. I write. I drabble. I duel. I poet. I'm a BADGER!!!

    Banner by minnabird

  4. #4
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
    Kill the Spare
    Equinox Chick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    using rare and complicated words
    Posts
    2,983
    Post nargles in the machine.

    Yes, sorry, I meant it could have been made whilst Lily and Alice (and Narcissa ) were pregnant but not before they'd conceived. I was getting confused with another timeline question.

    Regarding Voldemort trusting Snape, I don't think he trusted anyone particularly. It looks as if Snape was at the Hog's Head by accident. Whether he was actually there for an interview (Sybill thinks he was) is subject to debate, but I don't think he was sent there to deliberately spy on Dumbledore. He was, after all, merely interviewing a ridiculous woman for a teaching position. I think Snape was lucky, and the retelling of the Prophecy was what made him a part of Voldy's inner circle.

    It was only when Snape told Dumbledore that the Potters were the target that the Fidelius Charm was cast. Before then, they were in hiding, but perhaps they didn't think there was a specific threat.

    ~Carole~
    I'm a BARMAID. I write. I drabble. I duel. I poet. I'm a BADGER!!!

    Banner by minnabird

  5. #5
    Seventh Year Ravenclaw
    Attending a Deathday Party
    Gmariam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Hogwarts Preschool
    Posts
    543
    Hmm. Wouldn't it be interesting to make a case for Snape sitting on the information for a long time? Dumbledore knew Snape knew and probably assumed it would get back to Voldemort, so the Potters were in hiding, but they weren't a specific target...perhaps because the other side actually didn't know yet? And when Snape did finally give up the information, that's when it got more serious and led to the Fidelius Charm. It would also explain Peter's silence for so long.

    Oooh, I think I've intrigued myself...

    ~Gina

  6. #6
    Fourth Year Hufflepuff
    McGonagall Likes My Quidditch Skills
    Padfoot Patronus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Elvendork
    Posts
    151
    I love Gina's conclusion.

    But the thing about Snape releasing the prophecy he heard over some time or instantly... well it could very well work if it was written that he relayed it as soon as he heard it. The thing to draw on from here is that if you are Voldemort and you hear the first half of the prophecy, it must be a little vague. Not much information there really until you begin exploring who fits the profile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carole
    When Snape visits Dumbledore and informs them that Voldy has decided on the Potter child, it can only be a week or so before Halloween. Dumbledore then suggests the Fidelius Charm ... and we know Peter betrayed them a week later.
    Only that Snape started teaching at Hogwarts in 1981 as far as I think, which is '14 years' ago when Umbridge asks him how long he's been teaching (1995-14). If Snape started at Sep 1981, he wouldn't be meeting Dumbledore on the hill to say about Potter's danger now is he if he were working at the school? Besides Dumbledore still says to him along the lines of 'request of a DE' which is weird if he was actually already a teacher. That scene on the hill happened before Sep 1981. The delay of act on Voldemort's part could very well be explained by Ministry's intact control (how is it that you figure out where someone actually lived -makes me think of registers and forms), and fact that it takes time to place the moles who will help Voldemort decide who is the threat.

    So why did Peter not turn over their location to Voldemort before?
    Well this is confusing isn't it? Becuase the only idea that comes to me is that Peter was not considered as important as Snape and may be infact did not know that Voldemort was looking for them (atleast for some time) which is a little doubtful btw. It could be that Peter betrayed them on a few instances where they would be on a particular evening
    and thus an Order attack on Potters and/or Order turned ugly or was saved by (potentially) Snape's help to Dumbledore. May be Peter was not that high up the rank, may be he was in the beginning coerced to reveal information, which he'd do fearing for his life. May be it took him almost a years worth of trying to finally be so desperate and blind that he took the opportunity to save himself of the guilt of the little bombs by dropping the biggest one.

    -Akay-


    "Same story, different versions, and all are true."
    - Tia Dalma, Pirates of the Caribbean II




    Lovely banner by ze bean and avatar from the brilliant
    LJ home of mrserinreynolds


    deviantART page here

  7. #7
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
    Kill the Spare
    Equinox Chick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    using rare and complicated words
    Posts
    2,983
    Quote Originally Posted by Gina
    mm. Wouldn't it be interesting to make a case for Snape sitting on the information for a long time?
    Sitting on the information because he wanted to find out who it could pertain to and then when he realises, he tells Voldy hoping that Voldy will dispose of his rival and the brat.

    OOOH, I feel the curse of a 1000 Sevgirls raining down on me ... but darn it, that is intriguing.

    Having slept on this question, I think the only reason Peter didn't say where the Potters were before the Fidelius Charm was because it was unnecessary. Voldemort could have found them easily enough, it was only after the Fidelius was cast that he would have had trouble.

    When Snape visits Dumbledore and informs them that Voldy has decided on the Potter child, it can only be a week or so before Halloween. Dumbledore then suggests the Fidelius Charm ... and we know Peter betrayed them a week later.

    ~Carole~
    I'm a BARMAID. I write. I drabble. I duel. I poet. I'm a BADGER!!!

    Banner by minnabird

  8. #8
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
    Kill the Spare
    Equinox Chick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    using rare and complicated words
    Posts
    2,983
    But Voldemort had first hand experience and so he thinks that Dumbledore is capable being fooled.
    Actually the diary Tom Riddle tells Harry that Dumbledore never trusted him again after Hagrid was expelled, and that's why he didn't dare open the Chamber again, but conceived the diary. He doesn't think Dumbledore can be fooled, he thinks Dumbledore is a fool for trusting in love.

    EDIT: Just realised that Voldemort does at one point screech to Harry that Snape was his man, so he did think Dumbledore was fooled by him and Snape ... but that's 17 years later. I can't see him thinking that Dumbledore would trust a 21 year old Death Eater.

    My point is actually that there is plenty of evidence (McGonagall and Trelawney) that not every teacher started on 1st September of the academic year. It makes far more sense if Snape started post- October 1981 and after the Wizangamot trials.

    From that passage in The Princes Tale (page 544) which is just after James and Lily have been murdered, Dumbledore asks Snape to help protect Harry. Of course that is open to interpretation, but my gut feeling is that it was at that point that Dumbledore tells him the best way to protect Harry is to become a teacher at Hogwarts.

    The passage before on the hilltop could also be when Dumbledore asks him to become a teacher, but I rather think it's more when Snape agrees to be a spy for the Order. The use of the word 'Anything' comes across as very dramatic, and Dumbledore saying 'Okay, in return I'd like you to accept the cushy post of Potions Master at Hogwarts' doesn't sound as dramatic as 'Spy for the Order'.

    Snape returning to Voldemort, just after he'd asked him to spare Lily, and saying 'Oh, I have a job at Hogwarts. I thought it would be useful.' would set too many alarm bells ringing in a wizard who must have been bristling with suspicion after Snape asks him to spare a Mudblood.

    ~Carole~
    I'm a BARMAID. I write. I drabble. I duel. I poet. I'm a BADGER!!!

    Banner by minnabird

  9. #9
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
    Kill the Spare
    Equinox Chick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    using rare and complicated words
    Posts
    2,983
    Quote Originally Posted by Padfoot Patronus
    Only that Snape started teaching at Hogwarts in 1981 as far as I think, which is '14 years' ago when Umbridge asks him how long he's been teaching (1995-14). If Snape started at Sep 1981, he wouldn't be meeting Dumbledore on the hill to say about Potter's danger now is he if he were working at the school?
    Oh, good point. Now why did I think it was 16 years - which makes no sense at all.

    He doesn't have to have started teaching in September 1981, McGonagall, for instance, starts teaching in December according to her statement to Umbridge. We know that the Fidelius was only cast a week before the Potters died. And they would have put that in place as soon as they possibly could. Perhaps the Fidelius takes a long time to cast? *shrugs* Personally, I don't think he could have become a teacher before Voldemort 'died'. There is no way Voldemort would believe that Dumbledore would hire Snape as a teacher, it doesn't make sense.

    What makes more sense is that after Voldemort was defeated, Snape was outed as a 'good-guy' and took up the position at Hogwarts.

    Ah ... nearly 16 years is how long Trelawney's been a teacher - Autumn 1995 -16 puts her at the back end of 1979/beginning of 1980. That again gives another teacher a start date not in September.

    ~Carole~
    I'm a BARMAID. I write. I drabble. I duel. I poet. I'm a BADGER!!!

    Banner by minnabird

  10. #10
    Fourth Year Hufflepuff
    McGonagall Likes My Quidditch Skills
    Padfoot Patronus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Elvendork
    Posts
    151
    I want to believe that Slughorn was getting cold feet of the war for a while and that end of academic year 1980-81 was his end there as a result (note the subjectivity in this). May be he resigned in the summer of 1981. Things as always would unravel a little too convinently for Dumbledore (except the time they don't of course and that's usually disastrous). There's a vacancy and a DE to fill in the position.

    There is no way Voldemort would believe that Dumbledore would hire Snape as a teacher, it doesn't make sense.
    Dumbledore never explicitly made a deal of what potential he thought Tom Riddle at school was capable of in terms of evilness. He was very observant of course and he made sure Riddle knew someone was watching him. But Voldemort had first hand experience and so he thinks that Dumbledore is capable being fooled. He didn't understand what Dumbledore told him of not being able to make him frighten of a burning wardrobe. He'd always relished in the idea that he had bested Dumbledore.

    If Snape and Dumbledore cut a deal of saving Lily, and Dumbledore offers him a position as result, I can't help but think that Voldemort would see this as his win that one of his men had managed to con his way into Dumbledore's fortress.


    "Same story, different versions, and all are true."
    - Tia Dalma, Pirates of the Caribbean II




    Lovely banner by ze bean and avatar from the brilliant
    LJ home of mrserinreynolds


    deviantART page here

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •