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Thread: Severus Snape - Part III

  1. #1
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    Severus Snape - Part III

    The old thread got filled up with an awesome discussion, so here we go with a new thread. Keep discussing the good old Potions Master.

    For reference:

    Severus Snape

    Severus Snape - Part II
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  2. #2
    Vorona
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    In my opinion, it would be silly for Rowling, as a writer, to put in all kinds of scenes about Snape's complex relationship to Muggles and Muggleborns in a series that is about Harry Potter's defeat of the Dark Lord. Even if some of us (or perhaps just me) think the series would have been better if it was about Snape rather than Harry, it isn't. She doesn't have the pages to give Snape the amount of depth needed.

    I'm not discounting the fact that he obviously didn't have a problem with the anti-Muggle opinion of the other Slytherins. What I am discounting is the notion that he hated Muggles or Muggleborns. That he hated certain Muggles or Muggleborns, sure. But he also hated Purebloods like James Potter and Sirius Black. He hated lots of people. I'm not convinced, by the evidence we have, the he hated Muggles or Muggleborns on the whole. Again, hatred is a really strong emotion, and Snape's actions about Muggles/Muggleborns seem to be more dismissive/apathetic than hate-filled.

    Because Jo did not fill us in on his emotional state, it's clear to me that the evidence is not conclusive, but merely suggestive. Where one takes it (hatred or apathy) is up to individual readers.

    As for Snape/Hermione -- I don't remember Krum being described as handsome. Famous, yes, but I was under the opinion that he was kind of ugly. And rather Snape-like as well (particularly the hooked nose). She ended up attracted to him because he was intelligent and interested in studying, not because he was famous or attractive. But I agree that I don't see many reasons for teacher!Snape to be attracted sexually to student!Hermione. She is really annoying as a student.

    As for what to call the ship, I just go with Hermione/Snape or SS/HG. I don't think all ships need a single name.

  3. #3
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
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    Again, hatred is a really strong emotion, and Snape's actions about Muggles/Muggleborns seem to be more dismissive/apathetic than hate-filled.
    And yet, Snape, who is a very intelligent person, joined a sect whose whole existence is geared towards the non-existence of Muggle-borns and the subjugation of Muggles. And he didn't join one that would destroy pure-bloods like James and Sirius who he had far more valid reasons to hate.

    Although Voldemort may not have revealed the true extent of his policies, Sirius says his parents and others would have been in favour of his 'ideals'. I refuse to believe that Snape would have been so naive as to think it was a lovely little gang that sat around drinking tea and eating cucumber sandwiches whilst discussing 'what on earth to do with those pesky oiks that call themselves wizards when they're plainly not of our class, old bean.'

    I don't think Krum is descibed as ugly. Flat-footed, and with a beaky nose. But the term 'brooding' is used about him, and from the posters at the Tri-Wizard tournament, he's clearly some kind of stud. It may just be because he's famous, but that also sets a pattern for Hermione. She is very, very, occasionally dazzled by someone (coughLockhart as Ron says) ... and not for their intelligence. I can't see her lusting after Snape when she's a pupil, but in an AU world I could see her being attracted to him through his mind and also the fact that she'd probably want to redeem him.

    In my opinion, it would be silly for Rowling, as a writer, to put in all kinds of scenes about Snape's complex relationship to Muggles and Muggleborns in a series that is about Harry Potter's defeat of the Dark Lord.
    Yes, but if she wanted to imply that Snape secretly harboured feelings of great love towards Muggles, then she could have added an extra hundred words in The Princes Tale - she didn't. Perhaps that's a grave mistake on her part, but perhaps the story of his reversal from Death Eater to Phoenix convert is far greater because of the long road he travelled. If he'd always thought sympathetically about Muggles and Muggle-borns he would not have become a Death Eater, would he?

    Even if some of us (or perhaps just me) think the series would have been better if it was about Snape rather than Harry, it isn't. She doesn't have the pages to give Snape the amount of depth needed.
    I doubt it's just you, but a series of seven books about Severus Snape and his obsessive love wouldn't have appealed to children very much who tend to think of love and kissing as 'really icky.'

    I doubt we'll ever agree. I think Snape is a fabulous character, and his depth is through his redemption, but I can't get past the fact that he was a) a Death Eater by his own volition and b) he was so nasty to poor old Neville.

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  4. #4
    Vorona
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    You may be right in that we'll probably never agree. But I think you're misunderstanding something I'm trying to say here. I am NOT saying that Snape harboured any love (great or otherwise) for OR "always thought sympathetically" about Muggles/Muggleborns. I'm simply saying that he's not very passionate about the issue. He doesn't really give a d***.

    To be honest, I think we may be more in agreement than we think. For one thing, I completely agree that Snape's progression is much more fascinating if he starts out pretty evil, and then comes to the good side. I also agree that it would be absurd to suggest that he actually cared about or wanted to protect Muggles/Muggleborns at that point in his life. You're absolutely right: Rowling would have had to include something in order to support that view. But that's not what I'm saying here.

    I'm saying he didn't hate them. To me, I think he was merely indifferent, which I actually think is worse than outright hatred, because it's much more calculating and cruel. I think he probably joined the Death Eaters NOT because he bought into the whole Muggle/Muggleborn agenda, but because he saw it as a path to power and forbidden knowledge. I think he was deeply fascinated with the Dark Arts, and he also knew that he would only ever be "merely tolerated" in favor of people like Sirius and James if he went with the side of good. He was out for power and knowledge, and there happened to be a Dark group with a charismatic leader looking for new members. It probably seemed like a dream come true to him. Yeah, they were persecuting Muggles and Muggleborns, but he wasn't going to let that get in his way of his goals. If torturing them helped him achieve his ends, so be it. That's not hatred, though; that's opportunism. And Snape is nothing if not opportunistic. Heck, maybe he even had twinges of guilt . . . or maybe he didn't. We don't get to see that. Don't forget that he's a Slytherin. A Gryffindor or Hufflepuff might join the Death Eaters out of hatred or agreement with a cause (i.e. the right thing to do, in their minds); a Slytherin would do it to further their own ends, and the rest of the world be d***ed.

    And that's why I think he might have been itching to leave later on: they *weren't* giving him any actual power and he *wasn't* invited to learn any new forbidden arts. Lily's death just suddenly made everything clear and important. I think before her death, he cared about nothing but himself, not even the Death Eaters' anti-Muggle agenda. That's the change I see in him, and I think it's more powerful than the hatred reading.

  5. #5
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    Do you think Snape would have electricity in his home on Spinner's end? We know it was a home in a Muggle neighborhood and his Muggle father owned it, so it probably had electricity at one point. But do you think he would keep it even after he inheritied the house?

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    It's actually possible that it doesn't (or didn't) have electricity.

    That's probably unlikely but from the description the house appears to be a mill terrace (Lancashire? or is that only in my imagination). A street of houses built by a mill owner for their employees. That would make it about a century old (possibly older) so it would have been built without electricity (and probably originally had an outside ash closet toilet).

    That gives you a lot of freedom. Was it "modernised" or not? Most old properties like that where taken over by councils as rented social housing and they were modernised in the 50's and 60's. But some were in private ownership and remained unmodernised.

    Somehow I find the idea of Snape in a tin bath in the living room amusing, so unmodernised might be interesting.

    If it has electricity I can't see Snape removing it. But I can't see him using it, either.

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  7. #7
    thegirllikeme
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    I have a few questions I would like opinions on.

    What do you think Severus' relationship was with his mother? His father?

    What do you think happened to Severus Snape's parents? How do you think that effected him?

    I mean, we know that he inherited Spinner's End, but we have no idea how that came to be? Do you think they died? (and why does the past generations parents just seem to be missing, Lily's, James', and everybodies?)

    Do you think he had any Prince relatives? What do you think their influence on him would have been on him?

  8. #8
    Wizengamot Ravenclaw
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    Snape was probably closer to his mother than he was to his father, seeing as he took her maiden name for his nickname. Just how close he was to her could have depended on how much she protected him from his father. If she just let his father yell and didn't do anything to protect him, she was probably just the lesser of two evils. But if she actually did make an effort to protect him, he was probably quite close to her.

    Of course, in the books, we do see an ongoing theme of mothers who will do anything to protect their children. But you could really go either way.

    I think his dad would probably be dead (someone has to die in order for someone to inherit something, someone has to be dead). Perhaps the house was left to both Severus and Eilene, but Eilene decided to move out and just let her son have the house for himself.

    I would almost like to say that Snape's mother is still alive. We're seeing a lot of parents who aren't really all that old dying in these books (though it may just be the Disney phenomenon). You could really make a case for Snape's mother being alive or dead, but I would think his father died in order for him to 'inherit' the house.

    As far as the Princes go, I would think there must be at least a few left out there. We're seeing a lot of old blood families dying out in this book (the Blacks and such), and just because we don't see them in the books doesn't mean they don't exist. Though I have a feeling Eilene would have been looked down upon by her family for marrying a Muggle. Severus is described as being rather neglected as a child, and if he had reletives from the Prince family who were still involved, I feel that they would have intervined.

    Any relative Eilene might have taken the 'you made your bed, now lie in it' approuch.

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  9. #9
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    What do you think Severus' relationship was with his mother? His father?

    Given what little we find out canonically in HBP and DH, I can't imagine that he ever had a good relationship with his father.

    He probably had a bit of a better relationship with his mother, if only because he used her maiden name as a pseudonym. Or he just really wanted to emphasize his magical heritage and make a really bad pun. In either case, I think his relationship with his father had to be worse.

    What do you think happened to Severus Snape's parents? How do you think that effected him?

    I have no basis for this in canon, but I like the idea that one day his mother fought back and killed him. ... if nothing else it gets them both out of the way.

    More realistically, his father would have to be dead by the time of HBP for him to be living in Spinner's End. His mother doesn't appear, and it wouldn't be impossible for her to be deceased by the point too.

    Do you think he had any Prince relatives? What do you think their influence on him would have been on him?

    He probably did. I don't imagine his mother being an only child.

    I'm not sure about their influence, they could be responsible for a more pure-blood supremacist attitude, or they could be nearly non-existent considering Eileen's marriage to a Muggle.
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  10. #10
    Justice
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    What do you think Severus' relationship was with his mother? His father?
    I think Snape had a bad relationship with his father. I see his father as almost abusive. We know his parents fought a lot, and I see his father mistreating both Snape and his mother. This made Snape hate him. As for his relationship with his mother, it was probably better, but I see his mother defending Snapeís fatherís actions so that would drive a wedge between him and his mother.


    What do you think happened to Severus Snape's parents? How do you think that effected him?I think both his parents are dead. If his mother was still alive I see him having a decent relationship with her, which I think would have changed the course of his adulthood. I kind of imagine his mother dying when he was younger maybe a teenager. I think the abuse from his father would have finally worn her down. After his motherís death I see Snape as never talking to his father again. His motherís death and an abusive father probably led him deeply into the Dark Arts. His father probably died later leaving Snape the house.

    Do you think he had any Prince relatives? What do you think their influence on him would have been on him?If he did they probably hated that his mother married a Muggle and wanted nothing to do with Snape.

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