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Thread: Voldemort and the Unforgivables

  1. #1
    Lovemagic
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    Voldemort and the Unforgivables

    Kay, I've got some questions. This is kind of relates to the other thread, Torture Curses, but it's more about Voldemort...but I'm just going to lead it into this...

    I asked if the Cruciatus Curse is physical or mental; I think it's all in the head--

    Quote Originally Posted by msk8
    I think the victim feels what seems to be physical pain, but is really in his/her head.
    As msk8 put it.

    Now, Voldemort's a strong Legilimens and Occlumens. Wouldn't he be able to block out the Imperius? See, all of the Unforgivables mess with the mind. Imperius controls, Cruciatus tortures, and Avada Kedavra shuts off all body functions, I think...?

    Is that the way it would work? And if so, then wouldn't he be able to resist Imperius? Even from Dumbledore? I don't know if there's anything in the books about his mental strength, just that he can control people and their minds, but not anything that he can do for himself. As far as I can recall, haha.

    And the Cruciatus? Would that hurt him a lot?

    Hayden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovemagic
    Is that the way it would work? And if so, then wouldn't he be able to resist Imperius? Even from Dumbledore? I don't know if there's anything in the books about his mental strength, just that he can control people and their minds, but not anything that he can do for himself. As far as I can recall, haha.

    And the Cruciatus? Would that hurt him a lot?

    Hayden
    I don't imagine Dumbledore would Imperiuse Volders, but it is possible for a strong-willed individual to resist the Imperius Curse. Voldemort was a pretty determined person, and being such a good Legilimens and Occlumens, I think he would be able to fight the Imperius.

    The Cruciatus just hurts, period. It's supposed to inflict the maximum amount of pain that can possibly be felt, so yes, I believe even Voldemort won't be immune to it.

    Tim the Enchanter

  3. #3
    Fifth Year Gryffindor
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    I imagine that yes, he would be able to resist the imperious curse. He can cast Unforgivable Curses in a fast-paced duel, he duels McGonagall, Kingsley, and Slughorn all at once, he can match Dumbledore...(I imagine that the Unforgivable Curses are very hard to cast, and much more difficult to cast in the middle of a fight, such as the battle of Hogwarts. I think that if any Death Eater could cast them easily in a fight, there would have been many more than fifty dead at the end of DH. I think that in regular dueling, Death Eaters would probably use sectumsempra and the like more often than Unforgivable curses. (McGonagall had a gash on her cheek, and blood was supposed to be on the floor; if the Death Eaters used just the Cruciatus curse for pain, that couldn't have happened)) If he is this powerful of a wizard and as powerful an Occlumens as he seems (I say he's a powerful Occlumens because he's said to be a powerful Legilimens; I think the two would go hand in hand. Also, he can block Harry's erratic forays through dreams into his mind), he should be able to block Imperio.

    I do not think he would be able to block Avada Kedavra or the Cruciatus curse. Avada Kedavra is unblockable; the fake Moody says that in GoF. Voldemort would be influenced by that same as any other person. (well, a Horcrux-less Voldemort would be influenced the same as any other person.) I imagine the Cruciatus Curse working differently than the Imperius Curse, if that makes any sense. The Imperius Curse takes control of the body and influences thought; I think the Cruciatus Curse does something differently, perhaps just influencing the nervous system. It does not directly get to the mind in the same way as the Imperious Curse, so it cannot be blocked in the same way.

    I also imagine, for some reason, that Voldemort's splitting of his soul, (resulting in certain physical changes to his body) caused him an increased sensitivity to pain. If you bump a badly bruised knee it's going to hurt a lot more than if you bump an unbruised knee. I think that this is much the same with Voldemort. He's damaged his soul and mind, so his mind and soul are more sensetive, so he feels pain created in his mind more strongly. I don't know if that makes any sense. I think that Voldemort would be hurt much more than a mormal person by the Cruciatus Curse, but I also think that he would be better able to deal with the pain than a normal person, so he would probably be less likely to be incapacitated by it.

    Megan
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  4. #4
    Lovemagic
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    Voldie's soul is unstable, so I do think that his mind and soul would be more sensitive. Interesting.

    As for the Imperius curse...Even if he's an Occlumens, I wonder if he's ever had the curse performed on himself...so it'll be a different experience...Or should Occlumency block just about all of the spell and make it easier for Voldie to fend off the rest of it?

    Hayden

  5. #5
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    Just a quick thought though, we saw Harry fight the Imperius curse in GoF, but he's rubbish at Occlumency. As Snape never tires of telling us, Harry can't close his mind down like that, yet he can resist the Imperius curse. So I don't know if Occlumency skills would help Voldemort there, but by being able to close off his mind he might not suffer from the Cruciatus curse so much.

    Hannah

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    I always thought that Harry's failure at occlumency was more due to his dislike of Snape and Snape's poor teaching methods than due to incapability to learn. I might be wrong.
    Kinda really hiatus-y at present.
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  7. #7
    A.H.
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    That's interesting about the Cruciatus curse not actually affecting the body... it makes sense. If the curse is inflicting so much pain you would think that it would be doing damage that would last far after it's cast - but the pain goes away afterward, implying that there was never any real damage being caused in the first place.

  8. #8
    Mozarts Confutatis
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    Now, Voldemort's a strong Legilimens and Occlumens. Wouldn't he be able to block out the Imperius? See, all of the Unforgivables mess with the mind. Imperius controls, Cruciatus tortures, and Avada Kedavra shuts off all body functions, I think...?

    Is that the way it would work? And if so, then wouldn't he be able to resist Imperius? Even from Dumbledore? I don't know if there's anything in the books about his mental strength, just that he can control people and their minds, but not anything that he can do for himself. As far as I can recall, haha.

    JK Rowling has stated that Occlumency can be used as a mental defense against more than intrusion. She stated that it can also be used to nullify Veritaserum.
    Quote Originally Posted by JKR
    Barty Crouch had been attacked before...the interrogation, so...he could have employed a range of measures against them... or employed Occlumency against its effects
    While the above is indicative of Occlumency and Veritaserum, it is not a direct answer to your question. For this, I believe, we need to fully examine Occlumency. Now, Occlumency in its easiest form, deals with shutting down a select part of your mind and emotions to conceal things. Again, I quote JKR.

    "...I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories. But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself."
    Now, as she states, Draco shut down compassion to be a Death Eater, thuis enabling him to get a firmer grasp on Occlumency. We can only assume that Voldemort did the same thing, only many years previously. Thus, Voldemort not only would have had an earlier grasp on Occlumency, but also the ability to tinker about with his own mental defenses, strengthen them, turn them into traps for Legilimens, and other fun stuff.

    Now, we know that Voldemort is the, quote unquote, "greatest dark wizard who ever lived," but with the compartmentalizing of his mind, he also left a flaw in himself, which manifested itself with Seven Horcruxes, and the entire Seventh Book.

    So, to roundaboutly answer your question, I do not think Voldemort would have the Imperious Curse cast on him. Were it done, however, no matter the caster, I can assure you that Voldemort would have little trouble overthrowing it eventually, as Barty Crouch Jr. did his father's curse in GoF.


    I hope I helped answer your question!

  9. #9
    EnchantedCamel
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    :)

    Well, first of all, I do not believe Dumbledore would EVER use an unforgiveable curse, after what happened to Ariana. He is above that kind of horrible magic, and I think that's the biggest way he's changed since when he was a teenager.
    Of course, it doesn't actually say whether unforgivable curses were used in the fight with Ariana, but I still can't imagine Dumbledore doing something like that, even if it was to Voldemort. I can imagine Harry doing that, but that's because of what he did to Bellatrix the night that Sirius died.
    So, anyway, I think it's definitely possible Voldemort would be immune to the imperius curse. If you remember, Harry is immune to it as well, and Harry's awful at Occlumency. But that brings up another point; does Occlumency have anything to do with it? Because there's nothing relating those two...even though using the Legilimens spell and using Imperio do very similar things.
    Voldemort--assuming there were no Horcruxes of course--probably would die of the Avada Kedavra curse. In fact, we have proof of that, as he dies by his own rebounding curse. As for Crucio, I imagine it would effect him the same--Harry can throw off the imperius curse but not the cruciatus curse.
    I hope this helped!
    ~EnchantedCamel

  10. #10
    Lovemagic
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    Hmm... I've had another thought. Remember when Voldemort lost his body when the Avada Kedavra backfired? 'Pain beyond pain,' he said...Of course, you wouldn't be able to block it. I assume this would be stronger than the Cruciatus Curse? What do you think? This is actual physical pain, remember... Does it say in the books that the Cruciatus Curse is 'indescribable pain' or something of the sort? Which would hurt more?

    Hayden

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