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Thread: Wizards and New World Natives

  1. #1
    Wizengamot Ravenclaw
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    Wizards and New World Natives

    Lately, I have been doing a lot of thinking about history, more specifically the history of what happened to the native populations of various countires after they were discovered by the Europeans. We know what happened from the Muggle end, but how do you think the wizarding world treated the peoples already inhabiting these new territories?

    Do you think they were considered actual citizens of their country by the wizarding community? Do you think they were invited to their country's school right away, or do you think they were at first entrusted to their old traditions? How long do you think it was before they actually were invited?

    Do you think in some cases, native populations were forced to attend European-run schools like what was done to the native populations of America and Australia?

    Please include countries in your answers, but please do offer your thoughts and imputs.

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    Seventh Year Hufflepuff
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    USA - I imagine huge issues: wars, reservations, genocide, all that fun stuff. The end result wouldn't be good.

    Canada - Well, early French settlers were more interested in trading than settling and were encouraged to marry local women. The French have this odd superiority complex, which is not racial but cultural. It's not about whether you're white but whether you act French... and acting French is enough to confer French... ness. Frenchitude? (Can you tell I've had long debates about this with a friend this past semester? )

    That being said, French wizards, if they bothered to immigrate to Canada at all, would probably be more inclined to live and work with the local tribes. Though they would also try hard to convince the wizards that French ways are better.

    Once the British show up, ditto what happens in the USA, just maybe less extreme.

    Mexico/Peru - lumped together as the two modern Latin American states with the strongest states when the Spanish arrived. Depending on the relative strength of Aztec and Incan wizards, it is possible that they fought off the Spanish.

    The effect of diseases like small pox on the wizarding population would be interesting. Would they be susceptible? Would they manage to magick up a cure?

    If they were either not susceptible or managed to find a cure, then they probably could have fought the Spanish off just through numbers even if they did not utilize Western magic techniques.

    Other Latin American countries, not including Brazil: the Spanish were only interested in sending administrators not settlers for a long time. There might not be enough Spanish wizards to control a large amount of South America, though this is again, disease dependent.

    Brazil: Hmm... from what I remember of Brazilian history, the native population gets almost completely decimated by disease or runs into the forest to hide, leading to the importation of African slaves for work in the sugar plantations.

    Ah, the question of disease pops up again. Well, discounting disease, the native wizards could probably safely live in the forest or in their secret villages.
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  3. #3
    Iguanarwhal
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    I can imagine some stress that European wizards in the new world might feel over the fact that the natives clearly do not follow the International Statute of Secrecy. Though my knowledge of the subject is rather scant, I do think that they would definitely resist the imposition of the Statute of Secrecy upon them. There might be some that were okay with joining the European wizards in their lifestyle, but most would resist.

    I love the idea of the native wizards, during the Indian Wars of the 1800s, using magic against their American adversaries. I imagine they would have their own spells, rather than avada kedavra, rictusempra, etc. A quick Google search yields "yunke-lo," meaning death in the Lakota language and "niboowin" in the Ojibwe language. There's also the Apache word "netdahe" or death to all intruders, which would fit perfectly. I found a Quiché Mayan word for death too: "camic." Yunke-lo would be the best of these since it's a Lakota word and they participated in notable battles like the Battle of Little Bighorn. I can only imagine how neat a fic would be that embellished upon that battle in the perspective of a Lakota wizard, provided the writer had read up on it (Which I haven't.).

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    Seventh Year Hufflepuff
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    I can imagine some stress that European wizards in the new world might feel over the fact that the natives clearly do not follow the International Statute of Secrecy. Though my knowledge of the subject is rather scant, I do think that they would definitely resist the imposition of the Statute of Secrecy upon them. There might be some that were okay with joining the European wizards in their lifestyle, but most would resist
    I always imagined that the whole point of the Statute of Secrecy is to protect wizards from Muggles. So the Native Americans don't have to follow the Statute of Secrecy if they don't need protection, if they are in fact, the medicine men and priests and they are respected people.

    I wonder if the European wizards would actively try to keep Native wizards from Native Muggles for fear that they could give up the secrets of magic to European Muggles.
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  5. #5
    Inverarity
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    Well, I've written an entire series that deals with this (among other things).

    Basically, I doubt European wizards would be any less prejudiced than European Muggles. However, they probably wouldn't have the ability to exterminate/imprison/relocate Native wizards en masse, since wizards aren't bound to territory like Muggles are. So forcing Native wizards to go to European wizarding schools is unlikely. But they probably would try to suppress the local wizards to prevent them from exposing magic to Muggles (and from using magic the Europeans don't understand).

  6. #6
    Wizengamot Hufflepuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inverarity
    However, they probably wouldn't have the ability to exterminate/imprison/relocate Native wizards en masse, since wizards aren't bound to territory like Muggles are.
    Excuse my dimness, but I don't really understand what you're saying here. Wizards have nationality. It's the Ministry of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There are French Schools. Krum is from Bulgaria and there are a myriad of National Quidditch teams. Surely wizards are bound to a territory/country in much the same way as Muggles are. They just find travelling between territories easier.

    Unless you're saying that you wouldn't be able to force Native American wizards into settlements.

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    EDIT: Thanks, Inverarity, for explaining what you meant. I think they probably have an alleigance to their country, but I understand what you're saying now.
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  7. #7
    Inverarity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equinox Chick
    Excuse my dimness, but I don't really understand what you're saying here. Wizards have nationality. It's the Ministry of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There are French Schools. Krum is from Bulgaria and there are a myriad of National Quidditch teams. Surely wizards are bound to a territory/country in much the same way as Muggles are. They just find travelling between territories easier.

    Unless you're saying that you wouldn't be able to force Native American wizards into settlements.
    I think wizards identify with nationalities mostly out of convenience. There's never any evidence at all that British wizards feel any particular loyalty to Britain -- to the extent that they acknowledge the Muggle government at all, it's an annoyance, even to the benevolent ones. Do you suppose the Malfoys felt any loyalty to "Queen and Country"? Wizards probably do call themselves "British" and "French" and "Bulgarian" because they assimilate somewhat, but borders have always been defined by physical and political boundaries that just wouldn't mean much to wizards. It's pretty much impossible to restrict the movement of people who can Apparate or fly, and during neither wizarding war in Britain was holding territory ever significant to either side.

    But in simplest terms, yes, that means rounding up all the Native American wizards and keeping them on reservations, and forcing their children to go to remote schools, would be pretty difficult, assuming that Native American wizards have capabilities anything like European wizards.

  8. #8
    Wizengamot Ravenclaw
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    Now's where the topic might get a little controversial.

    We are all very aware of what racism is, but really, what is racism at its core, and what is it that makes one race believe it is better than another?

    How could this logic have been applied to European wizards and the New World populations who practiced forms of magic that likely had very little resemblence to what was practiced in Europe. How much do you think magic itself would have had to do with it. Do you think how they would have lived, the differences in culture, and essentially everything that would have been a factor in Muggle relations between these people as well?

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    I'm gonna go with the economic reasoning, mostly because economics is everything.

    Racism is a convenient excuse for economic abuse. Why is it ok to have black slaves? Well, they're not really people anyway. They don't have any sense of modesty - why give them clothes? You can beat them almost to death - that's what it takes to get them to learn. Enslaving them will bring them religion and make them closer to people anyway.

    As for what makes one race think it's better than another... it's a nice way to rally the people, for one thing (certain Austrian comes to mind with this one).

    In the case of both dynastic China and imperialist Europe, though, I think there's also the sense of, "we're bigger and badder than anyone else around. Obviously we're superior, we can crush anyone and everyone. You don't have (then-new technology) and we do. Ergo, we're just better." When you can manipulate other populations like that, it breeds a certain amount of arrogance.

    As for how this would affect wizarding populations, it depends on if you think the European style of practicing magic would be somehow more efficient, then they would probably use this against other populations. Just like European Muggles used guns, I guess. "We have guns, they are better at killing. Ergo, we are better/more advanced, etc, etc."
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  10. #10
    Wizengamot Ravenclaw
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    I have just finished watching the movie, The Rabbit-proof Fence, and it got me thinking about the relocation of certain peoples and the concept of reservations and boarding schools. If certain native groups didn't seeing anything wrong with Muggles being aware of the existance of magic, do you think the Ministry of Magic might have gotten involved with this practice once entire populations were moved to reservations and would be under the constant eye of the Muggle government. Even if native wizards had the ability to evade the Muggle armies and authorities, the question remains, would they want to be away from their people.

    And how would various Ministries have interfered with wizarding children being taken from their families to be sent to boarding schools as several nations did?

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