What Happened to Marius Black?

[ToBeOrNotToBeAGryffindor]

We know that the quill recording wizarding births is heavily guard, and I don't feel like the Hogwarts headmaster could be bribed into allowing members of the Black family to take a peek, especially knowing their reputation.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially if a member of that particular family was in on it. It's Lexicon time!

Phineas Nigellus Black (1847-1925)

Marius Black (disowned, dates unknown)
Son of Cygnus and Violetta (Bulstrode) Black.
3 siblings: 1 older brother Pollux, older sister Cassiopeia (1915-1992), and younger sister Dorea (1920-1977).

Now, it's reasonable to assume that, with the relative dates of his siblings' respective births, that Marius was born from 1916-9. If one were to extrapolate that he was born in 1916, plus postulate that Phineas Nigellus Black was Headmaster until close to his death (1925), then it is not unreasonable that Phineas would help out his son by erasing as much of Marius's existence from the Hogwarts records as he could. The reason why I believe that he would do that is because Phineas's sister, Isla, had already dishonoured the family badly enough by running off and marrying a Muggle-born. They didn't need a Squib to pop up and embarrass them further.

In terms of age of magic manifestation, I think that 5 or 6 wouldn't be unreasonable. Remember that Lily Evans already had some command over her abilities before she even went to Hogwarts, not to mention what had happened to Ariana Dumbledore at age 6. Though the Lexicon doesn't list it and my books are in storage (>.>), I am fairly certain that Neville's first vestiges of magic were at age 8. IIRC, he fell out of a window, but instead of being concerned, the relative that observed him barely stop himself from plummeting to his death was merely relieved that he wasn't a Squib. If someone has time, perhaps that could be double-checked.

So, henceforth, at around 7 or 8, assuming that Marius was born in 1916, Phineas would still be alive and perhaps even still be Headmaster. He would be able to, maybe even in his last act as Headmaster, strike Marius from the birth registers of Hogwarts and help to bury his grandson's secrets forever. If you were to go with the idea of the Black family offing their own child, then this is a means to an end in terms of anybody knowing about it.

Hope this helps.


Edit: Here is another slight addendum that might be of interest. Cygnus and Violetta's youngest child, Dorea, was noted to have married Charlus Potter. Now, by that time, I'm sure that the Potters would have already earned the reputation of 'blood traitors'. Perhaps, in order to keep their name out of any more speculation than is wrought by a child that suddenly disappeared, the Blacks allowed Dorea to marry Charlus into that family quietly and not make a big deal out of it.

[luinrina]

I think another member of the family did die young ... *ponders*

You might be referring to Sirius Black, the older brother of Phineas Nigellus. He died at the age of 8. In my story, I have him die due to some illness that ran around London in 1953 (can't remember which disease, would have to look it up first), so that was of natural course, more so because Sirius wasn't blasted off the tree, proving he wasn't a Squib at least.

Regarding of how to find out whether a child is a Squib: Neville's uncle (?) had him dangling from a window and let go, and he was bouncing through the garden, coming out of it unhurt. That proved he was magic after having not shown any sign of that during his childhood. Maybe the Blacks would do something like that too. There doesn't need to be a spell to prove whether a child is magic or not. Forcing the child into actions where it either gets hurt or saved by magic would be prove enough I would think.

I just checked with the Black Family Tree. Phineas Nigellus lived until 1925, whilst Marius would most likely be born sometime between 1915 and 1920. Since we know Phineas was headmaster at some point (is it maybe noted in the lexicon?), maybe he was headmaster when his grandson was born? He as headmaster may have had access to check whether his grandchildren are eligible for Hogwarts or not.

Or the Blacks never even considered it as they believe themselves to be so pure, that the moment Marius didn't get his Hogwarts acceptance letter, it came as a huge shock for them.

/my two Knuts

Edit: Jess was faster than me. But just to add to what she said: It wasn't only Isla who married Bob Hitchens who embarrassed the Blacks but also a son of Phineas who supported Muggle (or Muggle-born?) rights and got blasted off the tree for that. We also can only speculate what other "incidents" caused earlier members (ancestors of Phineas Nigellus) to get blasted off the tree, too. Only because the tree doesn't show them doesn't mean nothing like that happened.

[Equinox Chick]

Just had a thought.

We're all assuming that Marius and Isla were blasted off the tree by the head of the Black household at the time. It's possible that Walburga did all the blasting retrospectively.

You might be referring to Sirius Black, the older brother of Phineas Nigellus.

Yes, that's who I was thinking of. If it's recorded that he died of natural causes then they wouldn't need to blast him off for being a Squib. He could still have been a Squib who they 'disposed of.' Perhaps Marius survived death because Violetta intervened?

We know that the quill recording wizarding births is heavily guard, and I don't feel like the Hogwarts headmaster could be bribed into allowing members of the Black family to take a peek, especially knowing their reputation.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially if a member of that particular family was in on it. It's Lexicon time!

Do we know the records are heavily guarded? Just asking because I can't remember where that is in the book (possibly Ron mentions it when talking about Filch, I guess). The Black family possibly didn't have such a bad reputation at that time. I suspect they were always pureblood fanatics, but then I reckon a lot more of the old families were, and so they wouldn't be seen as abnormal.

Regarding Headmasters, although this has nothing to do with Marius, Dippet seemed fairly susceptible to flattery. I doubt he was bribeable, but I'm sure he could have been loose-tongued. Not all Headmasters/Mistresses were as incorruptible as Dumbledore.

~Carole~

[luinrina]

Just had a thought.

We're all assuming that Marius and Isla were blasted off the tree by the head of the Black household at the time. It's possible that Walburga did all the blasting retrospectively.

That's an interesting theory. Though, then, if Marius didn't get blasted off the tree, that would give an opportunity for the Blacks to nonetheless raise him as their son, only that he was a Squib, not magic like them. But would an ancient family like the Blacks accept a Squib this easily? I doubt it.

But leaving Marius on the family tree when they disown him so that everyone visiting Grimmauld Place could see that Marius did exist but wasn't there? Another thing I doubt as people would then start asking questions. Even if Violetta wasn't involved in the getting-rid of Marius, at one point I think she'd get suspicious.

Also, if Walburga did the blasting off retrospectively, why not blasting off Dorea, too, for marrying a Potter? At this point, the Potters were possibly regarded as blood-traitors already, so if the blasting off was done by Walburga alone, why did she leave Dorea on the tree but not Marius, or Isla, or anyone else?

[Sapphire at Dawn]

Originally posted by Carole:
Do we know the records are heavily guarded? Just asking because I can't remember where that is in the book (possibly Ron mentions it when talking about Filch, I guess). The Black family possibly didn't have such a bad reputation at that time. I suspect they were always pureblood fanatics, but then I reckon a lot more of the old families were, and so they wouldn't be seen as abnormal.

I don't think it's ever mentioned. Do we even know that it's a magical quill that records the births? Is this something that JKR has mentioned in an interview? But if Marius was a Squib then he wouldn't have appeared in the records as he's not a magical child. Or does the record list every child born to magical parents?

I agree with the last bit in that quote; the purity of blood used to be a big thing, so the Black's would respected and not seen as unusual. Probably there were a fair few of the old families who disowned Squibs and blood-traitors and the like. If people were ever to see the tapestry and the names burned off, I doubt they'd bring it up becuase either their family's done the same thing somewhere along the line, or they'd be afraid of angering the Black family and their reputation suffer as a concequence. The Black's were probably a powerful family and could command a lot of respect and had friends in high places to discredit whoever brought the subject of Squibs up. There could have also been some sort of concealment charm on the tapestry so that names that had been blasted off were invisible to anyone other than a family member. The charm could have worn off with time so that by the time that the Order moved in, everyone could see it.

I think it was unlikely that Marius was murdered, as Carole said, if he was it could have been attributed to a tragic accident. I think it more likely that he was packed off to some Muggle orphanage (I can't really see the Blacks sending him to a boarding school). Perhaps the father or whoever wanted just to cast him out on the street with little more than the shirt on his back, but someone (mother or father?) could have intervined, and he was sent to an orphanage. Also, when did the workhouses close? If it was after he was born then he could have been sent there. If it was before, then it could be where the Blacks sent previous Squibs.

Sarah x

[Equinox Chick]

OOh, I thought I'd replied after Bine's last post, but obviously not

Also, if Walburga did the blasting off retrospectively, why not blasting off Dorea, too, for marrying a Potter? At this point, the Potters were possibly regarded as blood-traitors already, so if the blasting off was done by Walburga alone, why did she leave Dorea on the tree but not Marius, or Isla, or anyone else?

Well, James Potter would have been seen as a blood-traitor and his parents too. But we know Charlus and Dorea were not his parents (the dates do not match). Charlus Potter may have been a pure-blood fanatic. Perhaps that's why Dorea was left on. The other Potters just aren't on the tree. The Weasleys never made it on either and they're supposed to be cousins as are the Prewetts.

I am actually less inclined to think of Marius being murdered now, because then blasting him off the tree kind of draws attention to it, but then blasting him off the tree draws attention to him being a Squib which is not something his parents would want to draw attention to. I think that's my main reason for thinking that it could have been done retrospectively so that no one would even know he existed. We only know because JK explained in her footnotes on her version of the tree. The Black Family tree didn't have the explanations embroidered onto it. We read it from JK's perspective, not Sirius'.

~Carole~

[Sapphire at Dawn]

Well, James Potter would have been seen as a blood-traitor and his parents too.

Do we know James' parents were blood-traitors? Or could it be that because James was with Lily that they'd be tainted by association?

With regards to Walburga blasting people off, would she necessarily know what everyone had done? Would she know about Isla, who was born roughly a hundred years before she was, had eloped with a Muggle? I think that once someone had been disowned, the family wouldn't talk about them again or what they did to bring shame on the family, which meant that unless she did some serious digging, Walburga wouldn't know and therefore wouldn't blast them off. But perhaps she didn't need to know. Perhaps she just knew that they'd dishonoured the family and therefore just blasted them off because of that.

Also, why hadn't someone before her got rid of them? Surely if they had been disowned then it would only seem natural to take them off the family tree...

Sarah x

[Equinox Chick]

Do we know James' parents were blood-traitors? Or could it be that because James was with Lily that they'd be tainted by association?

I pondered this before I wrote that his parents were blood-traitors too, but in the end I decided that as they'd taken in Sirius - who was a blood-traitor - then they were in all likelihood sympathetic to his plight ... plus they were Gryffindors. All the pureblood Gryffs we see are not fanatical about blood-purity (although Augusta is rather proud of it).

~Carole~

[Sapphire at Dawn]

I pondered this before I wrote that his parents were blood-traitors too, but in the end I decided that as they'd taken in Sirius - who was a blood-traitor - then they were in all likelihood sympathetic to his plight

I thought of this after I posted, but forgot to edit it in... it does make sense that the Black's would see them as such after that, but would the wider wizarding world?

plus they were Gryffindors. All the pureblood Gryffs we see are not fanatical about blood-purity (although Augusta is rather proud of it).

But that doesn't mean that they're automatically blood-traitors. Perhaps among the Death Eaters they would have been scorned slightly because they're Gryffindors, but generally they would be seen for their pureness of blood, not their house. The wizarding community isn't made up of just Slytherins, and not all Slytherins are Death Eaters. Voldemort says that he doesn't want to kill Neville because he's a pureblood, and I think that if any Gryffindor wanted to join the DE's, they would have been welcome. As long as they weren't a spy or close to Dumbledore or anything...

Sarah x

[Equinox Chick]

No, it wouldn't automatically make them blood traitors, but it equally it doesn't make all purebloods fanatics. We know of at least one Gryffindor Death Eater and a Slytherin who changed his mind, but Slytherin House values blood purity in a way that Gryffindor House doesn't seem to give a monkeys about.

Pa Potter was certainly a Gryffindor and James is passionately upset when Lily accuses him of being like Snape for calling her a Mudblood. He says he'd never call her by that name and it's the one time he shows real hatred for Snape, as opposed to the bullying that he only started because he was bored and thought it fun. I think it likely because James appears to have a good relationship with his parents that he follows their ideals as opposed to Sirius who has gone the opposite way from his family.

James does not seem very adept at hiding his feelings, so I doubt he could live a lie in front of pure blood fanaticists, if his parents were of that ilk. Sirius is a better dissembler.

Uhh... this has strayed somewhat from the subject of Marius Black - sorry. Workhouses were finally abolished in England and Wales in 1930, so that's not a bad option for Marius.