Removal of the Same-Sex Pairing category.

[padfoot_returns]

Hmm,

I have this issue about the same-sex 'warning'. On the one hand I agree it's offensive to class this as a warning like violence and abuse, but on the otherhand, I do appreciate that to certain sections of the MNFF community it is an issue. (way to sit on the fence, Carole)

Well, homosexuality was decriminalised in 1954 in the UK. (I don't know about USA or anywhere else) Whilst gay marriage and civil partnerships have been around for only a few years, I think fifty-five years is a long enough time for it to become mainstream.

The problem here is that MNFF is an open site, meaning the stories there are open to people from all around the world, people from different countries, cultures, and religions. So while gay marriage may have become legal in some countries, in many others, it has not. I would understand why reading about something illegal may make a person uncomfortable. Also, putting that aside, gay marriage makes a lot of people uncomfortable on a personal level because of their religion. Now, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on religion, but I do know that a lot of religions outlaw homosexual relationships. Another thing we have to take into account is that since Harry Potter's fan-base is so wide in range, people of all ages will be reading these stories, including children. If I were a parent, I wouldn't want my daughter/son to read such things at such a young age.

But yes, I do agree that they should be looked at as tags rather than warnings.

xxRiham

[Inverarity]

Frankly, I'd probably throw up my hands in frustration if I had to deal with every possible warning that might apply based on an incidental reference to sex, alcohol, or a gay character. (In fact, I did walk away from another archive when I was told that a tongue-in-cheek reference to certain wizards partaking of "Muggle herbs" in the 60s required an "illegal substance abuse" warning.)

Well, homosexuality was decriminalised in 1954 in the UK. (I don't know about USA or anywhere else)

And should I be attaching a warning to a story involving a seventeen year old Hermione and a twenty-five year old Charlie? Well, not in the UK because that relationship would be perfectly legal, but I think in the USA that would be classed as statutory rape. Is that non-con, dubious consent or can I leave it with no warning except Sexual Situations?

Homosexuality isn't criminalized in the U.S. (though a few states still have anti-sodomy laws on the books). And the age of consent also varies by state; in most states it's 17 or younger, but in a few it's 18. So that's an interesting question: does 17-year-old Hermione having a relationship with 25-year-old Charlie require a warning just in case someone is reading from Virginia?

[ron lover]

The only thing I don't think is right is having a slash warning. The word 'warning' is what gets me mad.

Going with what Kara said, I think that there still should be a Same-Sex category because it's nice to have them seperated from the other romace stories. It makes it easier to find one. Also, some people may not like reading same-sex, so if there is it's own category then someone won't accidently stuble on a story that is all same-sex.

I think that there shouldn't be a 'slash warning'. I think that 'tags' fits better.

[psijupiter]

I still say that we should be tolerant toward those that are just as uncomfortable about reading same-sex stories as others are about reading sexual situations or substance abuse, but I see that this is a matter of opinion where no one is really going to move their stance...

For me, warnings should only really exist for subjects that might cause distress for the reader. So, graphic violence, rape, abuse... they are all things that, for people who have lived through those things or been close to people who have will find upsetting to read. It's not about things that you just don't like. People don't like slash, but it's not the same thing. I don't particuarly like reading het, but there is no warning to tell me if a story not in the romance category is going to include het pairings. Once you start trying to warn for everything that people are uncomfortable reading, you are going to have a long and difficult list to manage.

It would be helpful to have an additional section, aside from warnings, that would identify a story not in the romance category as containing het or slash pairings (or both!) to help people find the fic they want to read.

Keep the category, ditch the warning. [shrugs] Best option, in my opinion.

I agree - the category is useful, the warning is offensive.

[tunuviel]

If people are uncomfortable with same-sex pairings, it's not like by getting rid of the category they are going to be forced to read these stories. They have the ability FOR THEMSELVES to consciously decide not to read a story because it isn't to their tastes. Summaries are there for a reason, after all. If someone doesn't want to read slash, he has the ability to avoid those stories if he wishes, whether the category exists or not. People don't really need to be protected from things that might offend them on the internet (which is hugely diverse, so going about shielding EVERYONE from what offends them is ridiculous, anyway). There is a ton of material on the internet that I don't want to see, or that makes me uncomfortable, but it's easy to simply click out of the window. (Also, the idea of homosexualtiy being offensive doesn't sit well with me, though I suppose I can understand it making people simply uncomfortable.)

Anyway. The Same-Sex category, however, does make it easier for me to find slash stories and I appreciate that as being it's true purpose, so I'm going to throw in another vote of support for keeping the category but removing the slash warning.

[LilyLunaPotter]

Jumping in here with what seems to be a more conservative view than most, based on the discussion thus far. I think that both the Same-Sex category and Slash warning are appropriate, for different reasons. The category, for the sake of searching convenience as has already been stated.

I would classify the warning as a warning, similar to any other warning in this way: firstly, warnings are not reserved for things that may be considered immoral or illegal. We have a DH spoilers warning and an AU warning. There is nothing immoral about either of these. The warning is there so that readers who wish to avoid such content may do so. Since there are a significant number of readers who may wish to avoid slash, therefore, the warning is appropriate.

Secondly, there are people who do consider homosexuality to be immoral, whether due to religion, or otherwise. Whether or not others agree with this stance is not necessarily relevant to whether or not there should be a warning. Consider this: there is a warning for mild profanity. There are a great number of people who don't see anything wrong with mild profanity, but there are also a number of people who consider it immoral. Therefore, they wish to avoid it; therefore, there is a warning.

The question of whether a slash warning ought to be necessary for the presence of a gay character, I would argue is a different question entirely, having nothing to do with the issue of homosexuality, and more to do with what constitutes sufficient content to merit a warning. The same argument can be had about violence, sexual situations or any other warning. It's about degree of content, not the specific warning.

[Roxy Black]

Right, the same points have now been repeated a few times and I think it's time to end this discussion before it gets out of hand.

The category for 'Same-Sex Pairings' is partly for ease of readership and partly for avoidance on the part of the reader or moderator. It is a genre when it comes to fan fiction, as much as AU or any romance pairing. The main popular pairings have their own categories within the umbrella. These characters are being taken out of the role they play in canon and are exploring relationships that they may not have previously been seen to, which may make some readers uncomfortable - not necessarily because they are same-sex, but because they are not portrayed in the same way. Think of the uproar when JKR made her announcement about Dumbledore - people suddenly had to think of him in a different light and some found it uncomfortable as it didn't really add to the character we saw in the books.

The idea of 'warnings' is the real issue here I think. The 'Slash' tag is only required when there is a same-sex sexual situation in a story. There is no need for a slash tag simply when a character happens to be gay if this is not explored in the story. I agree that the idea of warning readers against gay people is wrong, but that is not what we are doing. As has been mentioned in earlier posts, we are a family site and parents may not feel comfortable with younger children reading about controversial issues. In many countries around the world, same-sex relationships are still illegal, or seen as immoral or unnatural. I'm not approving of this view, but it is one shared by many people and it is a fact that we must accept as a global website. We are here trying to cater for a vast multi-cultural audience.

I am sorry that we have had to place this tag in a list named 'warnings,' but that's unfortunately what it is. Warnings is just a word, you can make of it what you will - to me, it is simply a list of topics and events that happen within the story that may offend some readers. Not all, just some, but we want everyone to be happy so we would rather let people know than offend them. Avoidance is the key to not getting upset.

I think we could probably say that you don't need to use the slash warning when your story is in the SSP category. It's pretty much a given. The warning is still needed for a sexual-situation as a secondary plotline though as it may not be an obvious twist to those who would rather avoid.

Does that make sense?

I'm sorry that we can't change the wording of 'Warnings' but it is required for the others on that list. The moderators will review all of our warnings in the new year and see whether we can come to a more satisfactory conclusion on this and other issues (such as the "Character Death" warning spoiling the surprise and shock factors in a fiction et al.)

I hope this response was satisfactory. We are not trying to be prejudiced, we're simply trying to appease the masses.

[bluexroses]

I think that the warning should be removed but the category should stay. I believe, just like with any other category, that if the story is centered around the homosexual romance, that it should be in the Same-Sex pairing category. This makes it easier to find for those who want to read it, and easier to avoid for those who may be uncomfortable. This is the same with any other category. I personally do not like to read Dark/Angst fics all the time, and having that category in the archive makes things easier.

Now about the warning, I agree that it is offensive to tag a fic as "same-sex" if there are only a few instances or if there happens to be one gay character. If this is the case, then someone who is uncomfortable with it can skip that part. Most of the time I ignore warnings, but if I do happen across something that I'm uncomfortable with (such as abuse, for example), I don't drop the story entirely, I skip over a few paragraphs and continue on. However, if the story is mostly about the homosexual relationship, then it should be moved to its category just as a fic that is centered around abuse, etc. would be moved to the Dark/Angst category.

If people are uncomfortable with same-sex pairings, it's not like by getting rid of the category they are going to be forced to read these stories. They have the ability FOR THEMSELVES to consciously decide not to read a story because it isn't to their tastes. Summaries are there for a reason, after all. If someone doesn't want to read slash, he has the ability to avoid those stories if he wishes, whether the category exists or not. People don't really need to be protected from things that might offend them on the internet (which is hugely diverse, so going about shielding EVERYONE from what offends them is ridiculous, anyway). There is a ton of material on the internet that I don't want to see, or that makes me uncomfortable, but it's easy to simply click out of the window. (Also, the idea of homosexualtiy being offensive doesn't sit well with me, though I suppose I can understand it making people simply uncomfortable.)

I understand your point that it is impossible to shelter people from information on the internet, but remember that there are people of all ages reading the stories on this site, who may or may not be ready to read about every topic (and I'm not referring specifically to homosexuality here). I also want to point out that summaries are usually not a good way to judge the total content of a fic. Most authors use summaries as a sort of 'teaser' to give readers a hint at the story, but not the full synopsis.

And a note: Let's please try to avoid getting personal. This is a controversial topic and everyone has a right to their own opinion.

[Annalise28]

My two cents.

I agree with everyone saying that the warning is offensive but the category should stay. Most people coming onto the archives to read a story, know what they want to read. I find it hard to say that slash isn't any different to heterosexual stories because slash is a completely different relationship, in my opinion. I love slash, I really do. Not because I'm gay, but because their relationships are so much more interesting. They are complicated to the highest form. They have to deal with a lot of discrimination from their peers. And if you live in America, you have to deal with not being allowed to get married because of your sexuality. So, I like to read slash because it is amazing that the authors can write such amazing stories, fit so much emotion, have amazing characterization and it pleases me that the world has at least began to accept homosexuality.

So, this is a lot to take in. All of this discrimination. Some days I just feel like reading a light and easy fluff romance. Others, I am very awake and prefer to think a lot. And, then I might decide to read a slash story. So, the category being there is a lot of help.

I also know that there are a lot of homophobes out there. There are a lot of racist people out there as well who try and make their children discriminate races and sexualities. They would not want their children reading stories that contain content that they believe is wrong. A good example, I find, is mudblood's and muggles. Do you think Lucius Malfoy would be pleased to find out his son was reading stories containing muggle praise or muggleborns dating pure bloods? Of course he wouldn't. Obviously, Draco wouldn't read the stories in the first place but an AU may.

~ Annalise x

[A.H.]

I think the discussion about merging the category has been closed, so I won't speak to that. It was just the more recent comments on classifying slash as a 'warning' that I wanted to comment on.

Book 7 Disregarded
DH Spoilers
Epilogue? What Epilogue?

The above 'warnings' are not to warn people against offensive material, they're there to warn people against, well, DH being disregarded, DH spoilers, and the epilogue being disregarded. They're not offensive, but it was decided upon long ago that readers would want to know those kind of details before they read it.

With that in mind, I think it's unfair to take offense to slash being among violence and substance abuse warnings when the warnings aren't all offensive. They're just warnings. "Hey, look, you're about to read this!" Not "Hey, look, horrible, horrible things are about to happen!"

Edit: Eep! Before anyone replies, I'd like to clarify, since I wasn't exactly careful in my wording (at least, not overly specific). I also don't want to speak to it being a warning in the first place, because I'm just dandy either way it goes and don't have that strong an opinion on it either way. I just wanted to defend its place in the 'warning' box, is all.