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Thread: Removal of the Same-Sex Pairing category.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilyLunaPotter
    Secondly, there are people who do consider homosexuality to be immoral, whether due to religion, or otherwise. Whether or not others agree with this stance is not necessarily relevant to whether or not there should be a warning. Consider this: there is a warning for mild profanity. There are a great number of people who don't see anything wrong with mild profanity, but there are also a number of people who consider it immoral. Therefore, they wish to avoid it; therefore, there is a warning.
    Actually, I think whether or not people agree with the warning is completely relevant, as it's the main reason for this disagreement. The fact is that, yes, there are people who consider homosexuality immoral and, while I don't at all agree with this view, I respect that there is a large number of people who believe thing. What I can't respect, however, is that in order to make these people comfortable, we have to make a whole other set of people uncomfortable by including a category AND a warning. Before there was a separate category for same-sex pairings, I agreed that the warning should stay, for those such purposes. Now that there is a category, however, I think the tag needs to go.

    I know this is an open site, and I know we have MANY views and opinions running rampant around here. But that's just it, isn't it - the internet is OPEN and you can't shelter everyone. I understand that some parents wouldn't want their young children reading such things - but let's be honest, some parents don't even KNOW their children are reading/writing fanfiction at all. My parents didn't when I first started. The fact is that by being on the site at all, you're bound to run into such things, no matter how much MNFF tries to hide it.

    That being said, MNFF will obviously do the best they can to keep it's 'family-oriented' structure, and I respect this, but I can't help but be a little angry that some sort of compromise can't be reached. We're talking about being fair to people's views and comfort, but honestly, I don't understand how keeping both a category and a warning is being at all fair to those who take offense to either one of those.

    And, on the subject of the profanity tags, since they were brought up - personally, I don't think there needs to be a distinction between 'mild' and 'strong'. If I have one use of the f-word in my fic, I have to tag a Strong Profanity warning, but I can use something 'less' offensive a hundred times and need only 'Mild'. I think if a story has Profanity, it should just be tagged as such and leave it at that. There's no need for TWO profanity distinctions, in my opinion.
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  2. #32
    psijupiter
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    I'm sorry that we can't change the wording of 'Warnings' but it is required for the others on that list. The moderators will review all of our warnings in the new year and see whether we can come to a more satisfactory conclusion on this and other issues (such as the "Character Death" warning spoiling the surprise and shock factors in a fiction et al.)
    Is it not possible to change it to something like 'Warnings/Themes' ? Warning may only be a word, but there are lots of things that are 'only words.' I think how we use words reflects and shapes how we think about things like same-sex relationships.

    I had forgotten about the other non-offensive warnings, because I neither look for them or try to avoid them, so I tend to ignore them. I suppose slash sticks out, because, like substance abuse and violence, it is something that is reflected in the real world, which is really why we warn for those. AU, EWE, etc, are warnings for a different reason, that isn't about the real world. If that makes sense!

    I hadn't realised the slash warning/tag only needs to be added if there are same-sex sexual situations, because there is a seperate sexual situations warning/tag. I don't think it is very clear for readers whether they were trying to find slash or to avoid it. Would it not be better to remove both the 'sexual situations' and the 'slash' warning tag, and then replace them with 'het sexual situations' and 'slash sexual situations'? It would be clearer and also feel less like slash was being singled out.

  3. #33
    Inverarity
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    Quote Originally Posted by psijupiter
    I hadn't realised the slash warning/tag only needs to be added if there are same-sex sexual situations, because there is a seperate sexual situations warning/tag. I don't think it is very clear for readers whether they were trying to find slash or to avoid it. Would it not be better to remove both the 'sexual situations' and the 'slash' warning tag, and then replace them with 'het sexual situations' and 'slash sexual situations'? It would be clearer and also feel less like slash was being singled out.
    That's a good point.

    If you have a sex scene, obviously you need a "sexual situations" tag. From what Roxy has said, if you have gay characters, you don't need a "slash" tag.

    So when do you need a slash tag? If the gay characters hold hands? If they have sex? If straight characters having sex requires a sexual situations tag, but gay characters having sex requires "sexual situations" and "slash," how is that not stigmatizing homosexuality by saying that it needs extra warnings?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inverarity
    So when do you need a slash tag? If the gay characters hold hands? If they have sex? If straight characters having sex requires a sexual situations tag, but gay characters having sex requires "sexual situations" and "slash," how is that not stigmatizing homosexuality by saying that it needs extra warnings?
    I'm not sure there's an official benchmark, but I'd say third base is a pretty good place to start.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psijupiter
    I hadn't realised the slash warning/tag only needs to be added if there are same-sex sexual situations, because there is a seperate sexual situations warning/tag. I don't think it is very clear for readers whether they were trying to find slash or to avoid it. Would it not be better to remove both the 'sexual situations' and the 'slash' warning tag, and then replace them with 'het sexual situations' and 'slash sexual situations'? It would be clearer and also feel less like slash was being singled out.
    I just want to say that I think this is a good middle ground. I mean, some people don't want to read about het sexual situations either, and having a warning for BOTH types of sexual situations levels the playing ground a lot more, in my opinion. If there really MUST be warnings, this might be a better option than singling out the same-sex pairings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNoToBeAGryffindor
    I'm not sure there's an official benchmark, but I'd say third base is a pretty good place to start.
    I think Inverarity's point is a valid one. What one person may view doesn't need a slash tag, another person might. That's just it, though, isn't it? Where do you draw he line on what 'needs' a warning? Two homosexual people holding hands might making someone uncomfortable, whereas to someone else like, say, the author, it shouldn't need a warning. If you're going for the obvious, then, yeah, duh, if your characters get to third base you need a warning. But what about the gray area before that? The same goes for the slash/het differentiation in the sexual situations tag, however, so ... I still think loosing the warning is the best choice.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobeornottobe...
    I'm not sure there's an official benchmark, but I'd say third base is a pretty good place to start.
    Umm, sorry, I'm British. I'm not entirely sure what first base, second base, or third base refers to.

    Whatever we're talking about, it's holding hands, kissing, or sex (and sexual situations). The 'warnings' should be the same if it's a het/rom or a hom/rom.

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  7. #37
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    I don't think we should loose the warning. I think people should know what they are reading, so there should be a way of seeing this before you start the story. I also don't think the warnings are 'warnings', just something that tells me if the story is one I would like to read.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fg weasley
    I think Inverarity's point is a valid one. What one person may view doesn't need a slash tag, another person might. That's just it, though, isn't it? Where do you draw he line on what 'needs' a warning? Two homosexual people holding hands might making someone uncomfortable, whereas to someone else like, say, the author, it shouldn't need a warning. If you're going for the obvious, then, yeah, duh, if your characters get to third base you need a warning. But what about the gray area before that? The same goes for the slash/het differentiation in the sexual situations tag, however, so ... I still think loosing the warning is the best choice.
    I don't and won't differentiate between 'slash' (I really don't like that term) and het situations. I would use that benchmark for both. Even cartoons for children have mild situations in them, so putting a warning for something a nine year old can watch on Spiderman is ridiculous. I agree with Inverarity that some sort of clearly defined line should be drawn for when and where certain warnings (and not just slash warnings) should be used. There should probably be a page on the site, similar to the HTML help page, that sets some sort of staff-enforced guidelines for each warning/tag.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equinox Chick
    Umm, sorry, I'm British. I'm not entirely sure what first base, second base, or third base refers to.

    Whatever we're talking about, it's holding hands, kissing, or sex (and sexual situations). The 'warnings' should be the same if it's a het/rom or a hom/rom.

    Carole
    The bases allude to Baseball, and the four bases (1st, 2nd, 3rd, Home) refer to a couple's progress in the physical aspect of their relationship. First Base would be french kissing, a Home Run/Fourth Base is what you'd imagine it would be, and Second and Third is everything leading up to that.

    I can't say I have anything terribly creative to add, but I'd just like to agree with several people here that the same-sex category is best retained, while the 'warning' for slash should be removed.

    Tim the Enchanter

  10. #40
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    Originally posted by LuNaLoVeGoOdLoVer
    I don't think we should loose the warning. I think people should know what they are reading, so there should be a way of seeing this before you start the story. I also don't think the warnings are 'warnings', just something that tells me if the story is one I would like to read.
    But if there is a separate category for same-sex pairings, then why does there need to be a warning? When venturing into the category, we know that all of the fics there are going to be same-sex, or have same-sex themes throughout the story. So, we already know. We don't need another 'warning'. I look at it as a warning. I know that there are people who want to know the contents of the story before they read it, but it is still warning the people who don't agree with slash or homosexuals. Although, if I look at it from a different point of view; think of Africans or whoever. They pierce themselves in what we would call terrible places, stretching their skin in their ears and lips. To most of us, we think, "Why in the world do they do that?" But that is what they believe is the right thing. So, I find myself very conflicted.

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