Wars

[OliveOil_Med]

I have a few things I have been wondering about when it comes to wars and wizards through history.

I wonder when the first laws where passed saying that wizards could not participate in Muggle wars. I feel like it always might have been an ethical standpoint not to interfere in Muggle affairs, but when was it made an actual law that it could not be done? And what wars in history do you feel like they must have had involvment from the wizarding community?

[Inverarity]

I have a few things I have been wondering about when it comes to wars and wizards through history.

I wonder when the first laws where passed saying that wizards could not participate in Muggle wars. I feel like it always might have been an ethical standpoint not to interfere in Muggle affairs, but when was it made an actual law that it could not be done? And what wars in history do you feel like they must have had involvment from the wizarding community?

Well, I imagine most big cities have at least a few wizards living in them. When an invading army attacks the city, even wizards are going to be endangered. Likewise, when a city comes under massive bombardment (such as London, Tokyo, and Dresden during WWII), the wizards are going to notice.

Whether they actively intervened in the war is another matter. On a large scale, probably not, as that would have been noticed. But I doubt every single wizard (especially the Muggle-borns) remained completely removed from the fighting.

[Karaley Dargen]

Whether they actively intervened in the war is another matter. On a large scale, probably not, as that would have been noticed. But I doubt every single wizard (especially the Muggle-borns) remained completely removed from the fighting.

Also, especially with Muggle-borns, there is the question to what extent they actually had a choice. Take one of the WWs; all "men" from 14 years were drafted and had to fight. A wizard who is registered with the Muggle authorities (ie a Muggle-born wizard whose parents have done all the usual things you do when you get a child, and let the authorities know about it) would have had little choice. Of course they could have escaped, but I can imagine them fighting as Muggles, using magic in really tight spots. Would make for an interesting scenario...

[Tim the Enchanter]

Well, I imagine most big cities have at least a few wizards living in them. When an invading army attacks the city, even wizards are going to be endangered. Likewise, when a city comes under massive bombardment (such as London, Tokyo, and Dresden during WWII), the wizards are going to notice.

Whether they actively intervened in the war is another matter. On a large scale, probably not, as that would have been noticed. But I doubt every single wizard (especially the Muggle-borns) remained completely removed from the fighting.

Also, especially with Muggle-borns, there is the question to what extent they actually had a choice. Take one of the WWs; all "men" from 14 years were drafted and had to fight. A wizard who is registered with the Muggle authorities (ie a Muggle-born wizard whose parents have done all the usual things you do when you get a child, and let the authorities know about it) would have had little choice. Of course they could have escaped, but I can imagine them fighting as Muggles, using magic in really tight spots. Would make for an interesting scenario...

Funnily enough, these are important themes and plot points in the story I am writing...

Anyway, interesting question, Molly. It's one I've thought about several times. Let's start with the beginning...

I wonder when the first laws where passed saying that wizards could not participate in Muggle wars. I feel like it always might have been an ethical standpoint not to interfere in Muggle affairs, but when was it made an actual law that it could not be done?

I'd imagine strict wizarding neutrality in Muggle conflicts would be part of the Statute of Secrecy, signed in 1692. However, note that wizards were going into hiding long before that date - the Statute made the complete separation of Muggle and Wizard formal and enforced.

As Karaley noted, I am sure there would be cases of Muggle-borns being called up to fight by governments ignorant of their magical secret. A Muggle-born could very well use magic to avoid duty, but I'd imagine many Muggle-borns would still feel attachment to the world of their birth, and might just volunteer without being conscripted first. But regardless, the Statute of Secrecy still applies. Muggle-borns fighting in Muggle wars still won't be able to legally use magic in front of Muggles.

As for "native" wizards, I don't see any reason why they'd bother fighting in a Muggle war. Judging by how most wizards know next to nothing about the Muggle world, they wouldn't understand their wars or even know they are happening, in some cases.

And what wars in history do you feel like they must have had involvment from the wizarding community?

As mentioned above, there would probably be Muggle-born wizard volunteers or conscripts who fight in Muggle wars, up to the present day. But of course, they wouldn't be able to legally use magic.

A lot of Grindelwald fanfics depict him as being some puppet-master behind Adolf Hitler (sometimes Imperiused), but I don't think this would make much sense from a wizarding perspective. Grindelwald believed Muggles were not fit to rule themselves, so supporting Hitler sort of defeats the purpose of that idea. Besides, having a strong, aggressive Muggle power capable of fighting back is the last thing a wizard who wants to topple Mugglekind wants. I think it would be more likely that Grindelwald would point at Muggle atrocities and bloody fighting as proof that Muggles couldn't take care of themselves, and use that to justification his own crimes against them.

However, that doesn't mean wizards were not at all involved in WWII, I just don't think wizards were behind it, which sounds too much like some conspiracy theory. Inverarity pointed out that the indiscriminate destruction of cities and landscapes had to affect at least some wizards, so it is entirely possible that wizarding governments could have Imperiused or Confunded Muggles (like misleading bomber formations) to keep themselves safe.

For some reason, one war I think of that wizards were probably involved in would be the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), or any other war of religion before the Statute of Secrecy, like the Crusades. Though Rowling's Harry Potter universe is pretty much overwhelmingly secular, wizards must have been religious at some point (otherwise, what is the Fat Friar doing at Hogwarts?), so I imagine that if they didn't understand Muggle politics, they could still be motivated to fight for religion and kill papists, infidels, heretics, or whatever.

Tim the Enchanter

[OliveOil_Med]

What I almost wonder is if some wizards who sympathized with Muggle causes or just happened to like blowing things up would slip into the ranks of the Muggle army and join in the fighting themselves, whether or not they used magic during this time.

I suppose that was the premise of me posting this thread. I wanted to know if anyone else saw this as a possibility.

[Inverarity]

What I almost wonder is if some wizards who sympathized with Muggle causes or just happened to like blowing things up would slip into the ranks of the Muggle army and join in the fighting themselves, whether or not they used magic during this time.

I suppose that was the premise of me posting this thread. I wanted to know if anyone else saw this as a possibility.

So, if you almost wonder, does that mean you aren't really wondering and this is a rhetorical question?

I wouldn't be surprised if some wizards have done this, but I imagine the wizarding authorities would crack down pretty hard on anyone caught doing it -- it's a pretty severe violation of the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy.

I also doubt anyone but a Muggle-born would join the fighting and then not use their wand. Why would a wizard-born wizard want to join a Muggle army and fight like a Muggle?

[leahsm2]

Well, they had a course a few terms ago which studied French History, and it fairly screamed out for wizard intervention. I'm a firm believer that being a wizard is hands down more interesting then being a Muggle, but I still found myself drawn into the machinations of the odd Muggle struggle. Plus, some Muggle conflicts are detrimental to everything alive, so there is always a bit of wiggle room in any time frame, I'd think.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Well, they had a course a few terms ago which studied French History, and it fairly screamed out for wizard intervention.

How so?

Plus, some Muggle conflicts are detrimental to everything alive, so there is always a bit of wiggle room in any time frame, I'd think.

What kind of wizarding intervention are you referring to with "wiggle room"? Are you suggesting that wizards were behind these wars (which ones in particular?) and influenced key events, or that some wizards chose to fight as Muggles to stay within the limits of the Statute of Secrecy?

Tim the Enchanter

[leahsm2]

What kind of wizarding intervention are you referring to with "wiggle room"? Are you suggesting that wizards were behind these wars (which ones in particular?) and influenced key events, or that some wizards chose to fight as Muggles to stay within the limits of the Statute of Secrecy?

Tim the Enchanter

Not behind them, but the Ministers of both worlds obviously conversed on numerous occasions, and not just when the dementors were overpopulating Muggle territory. I'm just saying that the magical weren't going to allow themselves to be trodden over by Muggle stupidity, and there is only so much arable land to go around, after all.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Not behind them, but the Ministers of both worlds obviously conversed on numerous occasions, and not just when the dementors were overpopulating Muggle territory. I'm just saying that the magical weren't going to allow themselves to be trodden over by Muggle stupidity, and there is only so much arable land to go around, after all.

You're speaking in very general terms here. Could you provide some examples or likely scenarios?

And how would wizards be "trodden over by Muggle stupidity"? For a society so completely removed and hidden from the Muggle world, I don't see how wizarding society could be seriously threatened by Muggles. Aren't places like Hogsmeade, Hogwarts, and Diagon Alley concealed and guarded by Muggle-repelling charms? How would Mugglekind be in a position to threaten wizarding communities or magical farmland if the Muggles don't even know they exist? Muggle warfare would have to be indiscriminate and on a massive scale in order to threaten a protected wizarding settlement just by chance.

Tim the Enchanter