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Thread: Identifying Non Verbal Spells

  1. #1
    pokethedevil
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    Identifying Non Verbal Spells

    There are plenty of of spells, hexes, jinxes and curses in the wizarding world. They all have a particular nature, are designed for a particular purpose.
    Similarly, they have their own colored jets of light.

    My question regards the spell with which Bellatrix hit Sirius before he fell through the veil. It's red, and forceful enough to have him fall through the veil.

    Do we have any proof, other than its color, that it was definitely a Stunning Spell?
    If not, what could it be?

    And while I'm at it, I would like to ask whether we are absolutely sure that Sirius died after passing through the veil, and not as the spell hit him. Stunning spells don't kill, but if it wasn't one, could it actualy have done so much damage to actually have killed him? In short: Did the passing though the veil take his life or the did the spell do the job?

  2. #2
    Inverarity
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokethedevil
    There are plenty of of spells, hexes, junxes and curses in the wizarding world. They all have a particular nature, are designed for a particular purpose.
    Similarly, they have their own colored jets of light.

    My question regards the spell with which Bellatrix hit Sirius before he fell through the veil. It's red, and forceful enough to have him fall through the veil.

    Do we have any proof, other than its color, that it was definitely a Stunning Spell?
    If not, what could it be?
    No. Rowling is not consistent in describing her spells, just as it's never clear that there is really a precise distinction between "hexes," "jinxes," and "curses," etc. A lot of people try to catalog every spell mentioned in the books as if they were AD&D spell lists, but really, Rowling made things up as she went along, and favored taking literary license over being technically consistent, every time. So a "red beam" may well have been a Stunning Spell, but you could easily say it was something else.

    What did Molly kill Bellatrix with, for example? It didn't seem to be a Killing Curse, yet it killed Bellatrix with one shot. It's a lethal hex, unnamed and not really described. Does that mean that there is some other one-shot kill spell in the HP universe besides a Killing Curse, or did Molly just get lucky?

    And while I'm at it, I would like to ask whether we are absolutely sure that Sirius died after passing through the veil, and not as the spell hit him. Stunning spells don't kill, but if it wasn't one, could it actualy have done so much damage to actually have killed him? In short: Did the passing though the veil take his life or the did the spell do the job?
    I recall rereading that passage not long ago, and it clearly describes Sirius looking astonished and then frightened after he fell through the Veil. So while I guess it's possible that he could have already been mortally wounded, he was not actually dead yet when he fell through.

  3. #3
    pokethedevil
    Guest
    Thanks for the input, Inverartity. Just one last thing, though:
    He is described as being 'frightened' in the next instant, as in we could easily take it as a result of pain and proceeding that, the realization that he is surely a goner now.

    Taking that as the most probable thought in his mind, I guess it would be wrong to assume that were the veil not behind him in a similar scenario, he'd be knocked down by the spell but still able to get up and fight, no? What I can gather is that it was a pretty dangerous spell and either way would have harmed Sirius quite... seriously, right?

    And anyway, if it were a stunner, he wouldn't have been able to change his facial expressions 'cause he'd have been immediately knocked unconscious.

  4. #4
    TheCursedQuill
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    And anyway, if it were a stunner, he wouldn't have been able to change his facial expressions 'cause he'd have been immediately knocked unconscious.
    You are completely right. Which means it couldn't have been a stunner spell. I'm not so sure we could actually figure out what it could be. There are so many spells out there, a lot of them we most likely don't know. Snape could make his own spells, so how many others have done that? And we don't really have a full look into all of the dark magic that exists in the Potterverse. Bellatrix could have used some dark spell, that we don't know about, which simply causes pain, but has less of an effect of the cruciatus curse. Or she could have been using a simple duelling spell to disarm, or confuse Sirius. It could have been anything, and the only thing we know for sure is that Sirius died AFTER he fell through the veil.

    Does that mean that there is some other one-shot kill spell in the HP universe besides a Killing Curse, or did Molly just get lucky?
    I know that this is off-topic, but I'd like comment on it a little . I don't think that there would be another one-shot killing curse, or else it would be considered Unforgivable. And if it wasn't, then what's the difference between this unknown killing curse and avada kendavra? No, I think that Molly simply used a curse, or hex, or whatever, just so powerful, that it killed Bellatrix. Not to mention that Molly had every intention of killing Bellatrix, which probbaly had an effect on the spell as well.

    Spells sometimes have different effects on how powerful they are. For example, Expelliarmus managed to knock Snape out becuase there were three people who hit him with it. The more powerful the spell, the more harmful. Even though Molly is only one person, with her temperment, she could probably have the power of three teenagers

  5. #5
    Inverarity
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCursedQuill
    You are completely right. Which means it couldn't have been a stunner spell. I'm not so sure we could actually figure out what it could be.
    Ah, but here you are assuming a consistent effect every time. Does a Stunner automatically knock out anyone it hits? Instantly? Does it matter where they are hit?

    We know that Hagrid shrugged off a lot of Stunning Spells, because of his half-giant resiliency. We also know that when McGonagall took half a dozen Stunning Spells to the chest, they said her life was in danger, because of her age.

    So, clearly the effect can vary. It's not necessarily true that Sirius couldn't have still been conscious (but stunned) if he'd been hit by a Stunner.

  6. #6
    ahattab33
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    Originally posted by TheCursedQuill:
    No, I think that Molly simply used a curse, or hex, or whatever, just so powerful, that it killed Bellatrix. Not to mention that Molly had every intention of killing Bellatrix, which probbaly had an effect on the spell as well.
    I'm at work and don't have my books available, but I was under the impression upon reading this passage that the reason for Bellaxtrix's death was the placement of Molly's spell. It was right over her heart. That, combined with the power and her intent, helped make what would have been a normal Stunning spell lethal.

    Something similar might have been true for Sirius - Bellatrix's spell hit Sirius in the same or similar spot, only he flew backwards into the veil, and thus is death was guaranteed. Bellatrix's intent was probably just as strong as Molly's due to her nature.

  7. #7
    Seventh Year Ravenclaw
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    I don't think that there would be another one-shot killing curse, or else it would be considered Unforgivable. And if it wasn't, then what's the difference between this unknown killing curse and avada kendavra? No, I think that Molly simply used a curse, or hex, or whatever, just so powerful, that it killed Bellatrix. Not to mention that Molly had every intention of killing Bellatrix, which probbaly had an effect on the spell as well.
    I agree - she either used the AK or she got lucky with something else. I doubt there is another one-shot killing curse that JKR didn't mention. And just because we don't "hear" Molly say it, doesn't mean she didn't - it just means JKR didn't feel like writing it out for us.
    Or maybe Molly did the AK curse as a non-verbal spell. Is that possible? Because that makes it truly Unforgivable - to be able to kill someone without warning!
    I have always assumed she used the AK curse but we just didn't get it in writing.

    As for Sirius. . . Inverarity, weren't we discussing this somewhere else recently? I had always assumed it was a Killing Curse that got Sirius, but I now know part of that is because of the movie. In the book it really doesn't say. The previous curse was red, but the one that pushes him through the veil is not described:
    "The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest." (OOTP)

    So it could be anything, really - we may never know. Whatever it was, it was something that surprised him: he was taunting Bellatrix after jet of red light(presumably a Stunning spell):
    " 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room." (OOTP)

    We know there are other dark spells that can certainly wound someone enough that they might die - take that spell Hermione got hit with in the DoM or Sectumsempra. So I think Sirius was surprised that she used a powerful, possibly dark spell. He was probably injured, and the force of the spell pushed him through the veil alive which added to his shock at what was happening.

    I think it's still very sad.
    I wonder if JKR was deliberately vague about it?

    ~Gina

  8. #8
    Love4Magic
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    Adding on to what Gmariam said about the second spell not being described, I believe it's safe to assume it was pretty dark magic. This is Bellatrix we're talking here. She was twisted and evil. And remember, she was fighting Sirius, someone she loathed.

    I think she was just playing with him at first (the stunner) but when Sirius started to taunt her, she really got angry. She would've wanted him dead, or, more likely, seriously(no pun intended) injured. Remember Dumbledore describing Bella as liking to play with her food.

    I think the spell would've been very dark and very dangerous. I also think this could maybe explain Sirius' surprised expression. Maybe it was a spell he had only ever heard of? Or something notoriously dark? Maybe we'll never know...

  9. #9
    lupins_girl2006
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    I don't think we will ever know what kind of spell it was. If Sirius hadn't fallen through the veil then we would have known the reaction to the spell, but falling through the veil made it impossible to know.

    A question I have is: How do we even know if Sirius really died?

    Now I know JK Rowling said that he did in fact died, but do any of us really know what the veil does when someone passes through it? Does JK Rowling even know for sure? She might have stuck it behind Sirius as an excuse to say that he died just so he could come back in the forest near the end of the final battle.

    So is Sirius even dead?

    ~Allieatrix

  10. #10
    pokethedevil
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    A question I have is: How do we even know if Sirius really died?

    Now I know JK Rowling said that he did in fact died, but do any of us really know what the veil does when someone passes through it? Does JK Rowling even know for sure? She might have stuck it behind Sirius as an excuse to say that he died just so he could come back in the forest near the end of the final battle.

    So is Sirius even dead?
    Most definitely... yes. Sirius came back as one of the dead, along with Lily, James and Sirius.He even describes to Harry that dying is painless, rather like falling asleep. He ahs to hav experienced it to know how it feel, right?
    That much is clear. Dumbledore acknowledges it ; in fact, he has no doubts about it. Even Lupin, who was so close to him, doesn't even try to help him up or out of the veil but in fact holds Harry back. This proves that the moment he fell through, it was clear to every adult wizard present, that Sirius is gone from this world, and in essence, dead.

    Does JK Rowling even know for sure? She might have stuck it behind Sirius as an excuse to say that he died just so he could come back in the forest near the end of the final battle.
    Remember, this is Jo's world. No body knows everything about it but Jo.
    It's not an excuse, in my opinion, it's a part of the story, a factor for how things turned out the way they did in the end. He wasn't alive when he came back in the forest scene . He's still in that shadowy, less than solid form as the others. He doesn't belong to this world anymore and this was just a temporary visit, for Harry's sake.

    She might just made up things like the veil as she went along in the story, and we might not chose to adhere to the logic behind these facts, but after all, they are facts, canon, the real thing despit the truth that they don't have a solid history attached to them. And think about it. Her object was to move the story along, not explain each and every concept of the Wizarding World. Hopefully, that'll be accomplished in the HP Encyclopedia.... *sigh* Whenever that comes out...

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