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Thread: Severus Snape

  1. #121
    cmwinters
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    Oh boy. DH compliant Snape. This is a complex issue for me, and one I don't like to think much about.

    I thin he probably had motivations other than Lily, but I think those same motivations are tied in to Lily, somehow.

    For example, I think that he felt like helping Harry was serving Lily, and by serving Lily then he redeemed his own soul. I think it is quite telling that Dumbledore asks Snape "how many people have you watched die", and not "how many people have you killed", because I think that demonstrates that Snape's soul was as whole as it could ever be under the circumstances of growing up in a home where your parents don't love you and care about you, and where you have no friends save one, who really doesn't value you as much as you value them. It seemed like Severus was "convenient" for Lily, whereas it seemed like Lily was EVERYTHING to Severus. She was certainly his only reference for normality and affection.

    I think Severus' anger in the memories shows this. He's angry at being misled, angry at Harry being "raised like a pig for slaughter," because in that slaughter, it seems like Snape loses the only opportunity he has to redeem himself for his past crimes, and specifically redeem himself for the death of Lily.

    It's like, she died, and if Harry dies and her sacrifice was in vain, and Severus could have prevented that, not only did she die because of him, but he failed to prevent it from being a useless death.

    So in short, yes, I think Snape had other motivations, specifically his own redemption, but I think that redemption was very intimately connected to Lily.

  2. #122
    The Canon Queen Hufflepuff
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    I am working on a story in which Snape survives the snake bite at the end of DH. I have a few questions though.

    Would it be OC for Snape to be interested in and possibly fall in love with another woman?

    We know he loved Lily until the day he died, but had he lived, and found someone who was attracted to him and he to her, could he love her?

    What if she was a Mudblood? Would he have learned from his mistakes with Lily enough to overlook her blood status?

    How do you think he would react to finding himself alive? In my story, he is in St. Mungo's and it starts the night the battle ended. Would he wish for death and try to stop them from saving him? He does find out Voldemort was defeated, and his survival is top secret.

    Thanks for your help, this is the first time I have tried to write something this long about Snape. I'm sure I will probably have more questions as my story progresses.
    Terri Black (as in Mrs Sirius {aka Padfoot} Black)
    Hufflepuff Head of House


  3. #123
    cmwinters
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudbloodproud
    I am working on a story in which Snape survives the snake bite at the end of DH. I have a few questions though.
    Let's see. POTIONS master who inevitably has an antidote on hand no matter what screw-up a student manages to brew, who gives a speech about "stoppering death", a Potions prodigy who made changes to the textbook at fifteen, who's worked as a Death Eater for years, who knows about Nagini, is Head of House for the House of Snakes and who remained loyal to Dumbledore up until the moment he was bitten (Dumbledore being a man who has a phoenix for a familiar, and that particular Phoenix has healed a magical snake bite before . . . hm. Yes, that's quite possible!

    Quote Originally Posted by mudbloodproud
    Would it be OC for Snape to be interested in and possibly fall in love with another woman?
    As much as I hate to say this, because I think this entire point is preposterously unrealistic, the way Jo has set up her world, no.

    But hear me out.

    The way the Potterverse is set up, everyone (except for the freaks Lupin & Tonks) fall in love in freakin' middle school, and then they marry that one person and they live happily ever after, except if they don't, in which case they're either gay (Dumbledore) or a "deeply horrible person" (Snape).

    I think that's a horribly unrealistic way to present any universe, which is why I said "I hate to say it, but no".

    But should you choose to take a more *realistic* tact with your story, then yes, I think you could make it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by mudbloodproud
    We know he loved Lily until the day he died, but had he lived, and found someone who was attracted to him and he to her, could he love her?
    I think what you'd have to do *first* is resolve the "issue" of him and Lily; see my reply to the post immediately above for the business about her and his redemption and her life and death being in vain and all that.

    HOWEVER, now that the war is over, now that the Dark Lord is dead, I think eventually Snape could think about "moving on".

    Remember that the Dark Lord said something along the lines of "we convinced him there were women more worth of his affections" or some such, so he was able to play the part, even if he didn't feel it.

    Bear in mind that Severus Snape is a DEEPLY damaged person. He's only known love ever in his life for a VERY short while, and that person (Lily) didn't do a particularly good job of it. Even his *parents* didn't love him, and that's pretty bad. It's going to take an awful lot of soul-searching and deep thought for Snape to get beyond that and think that he *is* lovable, and has something to offer anyone besides money/power/position/whatever else that isn't *himself*. So that's going to be very difficult, but I think it's possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by mudbloodproud
    What if she was a Mudblood? Would he have learned from his mistakes with Lily enough to overlook her blood status?
    I don't think he ever really cared about blood status, despite being a Slytherin and a Death Eater. He certainly didn't care when it came to Lily and he castigated Phineas Nigellus Black for calling Hermione a Mudblood.

    I think what he really wanted/got out of the Death Eaters was power, respect, control and perhaps influence. None of which he had in the first place. Possibly they even tempted him with "forbidden knowledge", because the man supercedes Hermione for love of books.

    And before anyone says anything like "but he called Lily a Mudblood!" . . . yes, he did, and it was completely unforgiveable, AND it was said in a moment of extreme duress when the entire school, including his dorm mates (to whom blood status most certainly did matter) were watching. That is hardly a good example. There is absolutely no other reason to believe he ever cared about blood status.

    Quote Originally Posted by mudbloodproud
    How do you think he would react to finding himself alive? In my story, he is in St. Mungo's and it starts the night the battle ended. Would he wish for death and try to stop them from saving him? He does find out Voldemort was defeated, and his survival is top secret.
    Probably, because he's a miserable lout with a great amount of self-loathing. He's had one purpose in life since he was nineteen, the war's been going on his entirely life, he's a social pariah . . . he probably would think it's much easier to just die.

    Quote Originally Posted by mudbloodproud
    Thanks for your help, this is the first time I have tried to write something this long about Snape. I'm sure I will probably have more questions as my story progresses.
    He's quite the fascinating character, isn't he?

  4. #124
    leahsm2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmindreda
    Furthermore, Harry is a living reminder of Lily's death, and in a way, from Severus' POV, in particular, can easily be viewed as the very cause of her death - after all, were it not for Harry being the child of the prophecy, Lily may have been alive.
    The prophecy is very vague isn't it? I mean doesn't Voldemort decide that the child in question is Harry and not Neville. I think this is the added impetus for Snape to turn (that and not going to Azkaban) to the Order, but I don't see Snape as having any real culpability here because I would assume (perhaps wrongly) that Snape didn't think this would be the Potters' Death Warrant, and the fact that it worked out that way isn't Snape's fault, and I don't think he'd see it that way, either (at least I'd hope not.)


    Quote Originally Posted by cmwinters
    However, Peter had a Life-Debt to Harry and you can bet Snape knew this. I can see the Dark Lord being in a cranky mood and about to dispose of (read: "kill") Peter, and Snape saying "My lord . . . if I may? I could use some assistance at Spinner's End with $whatever_Snape_was_supposed_to_be_working_on", and the Dark Lord seeing this as an opportunity to place a spy.

    Snape would see it as an opportunity to torment Pettigrew, but also keep him alive long enough to allow him to repay his life debt
    I hope this isn't out of the context of this thread, but I was curious about Life Debts and saw this one mentioned. I think that
    canon may be vague on this point, but how are Life Debts actually formed (did Snape owe one to James; did Draco owe Snape?) and how exactly are they payed off? Are they eternal or once you save the person you owe are you back to normal? Is there a clear cut rule where you'd know you owed one?

  5. #125
    Amber0_o
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    Quote Originally Posted by leahsm2
    The prophecy is very vague isn't it? I mean doesn't Voldemort decide that the child in question is Harry and not Neville. I think this is the added impetus for Snape to turn (that and not going to Azkaban) to the Order, but I don't see Snape as having any real culpability here because I would assume (perhaps wrongly) that Snape didn't think this would be the Potters' Death Warrant, and the fact that it worked out that way isn't Snape's fault, and I don't think he'd see it that way, either (at least I'd hope not.)
    Adding to this, it is unlikely that Severus every actually believed the prophecy when he told it to Voldemort. He doesn't seem to be the sort to buy into that sort of thing, especially if he had been listening in on the whole interview. He may have thought it was simply her last-ditch attempt at getting the job at Hogwarts.

    But, he told Voldemort anyway because he needed a reason to seal in his apparent loyalty to the Dark Lord. Being a Half-Blood in that group can't be the easiest situation.

    I hope this isn't out of the context of this thread, but I was curious about Life Debts and saw this one mentioned. I think that
    canon may be vague on this point, but how are Life Debts actually formed (did Snape owe one to James; did Draco owe Snape?) and how exactly are they payed off? Are they eternal or once you save the person you owe are you back to normal? Is there a clear cut rule where you'd know you owed one?
    I believe I've posted something on this subject a little while back, and if I may quote myself

    Quote Originally Posted by amber0_o

    But remember, he owes a Life Debt to James. So he'd be more compelled, perhaps, to save him.

    I realize the question is long over, but for future refrence, does Severus truly have a Life Debt to James? I mean, when Albus said that to Harry in he never specifically stated a Life Debt nor did Harry have any idea that Severus and Lily had been friends. So, Albus just pushed Severus' desire to protect Harry as a debt to be paid to James, rather than Lily. And even if it were a debt paid to James, it could be argued that it was a debt that Severus imposed upon himself, rather than a magical one.

    And then, if Severus does owe James a debt, then doesn't Ginny owe one to Harry in CoS? Or Ron one to Harry in HBP? I'm not entirly certain that everytime someone is saved by another it results in a Life Debt.

    I'm not even certain that Life Debts have to be paid. If that was true, then Peter should have paid his in GoF. JKR's reasoning with Life Debts seems to be fairly sloppy, IMHO, and it seems to become a tiny plot device to get Harry out of trouble and kill Peter in the end.

  6. #126
    Azhure
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    I hope this isn't out of the context of this thread, but I was curious about Life Debts and saw this one mentioned. I think that
    canon may be vague on this point, but how are Life Debts actually formed (did Snape owe one to James; did Draco owe Snape?) and how exactly are they payed off? Are they eternal or once you save the person you owe are you back to normal? Is there a clear cut rule where you'd know you owed one?
    The thing with Life Debts is that in the Muggle world they are purely symbolic. If someone saved your life, you may feel like you have to 'pay them back'. The payback doesn't even happen all of the time, though. Do you think that every one person who has saved another's life has been saved from that person? Not everyone is put into a life threatening situation during their life time. Even if they are and the debt-ower has the opportunity, what's to say that they won't freeze up with fear, or not be able to save the person for whatever reason?

    With Life Debts it's more the feeling of gratitude and the desire to pay them back, than the actual bond that it present between the two people. I seriously doubt that Snape had a bond with James though, so it's different for everyone.

    Maybe in the magical world a Life Debt is like a magical bond (sort of like the Unbreakable Vow), but like I said earlier, not every one will experience life-threatening situations.

    In Amber's quote she asked if Ginny would owe Harry. I believe that yes, she would feel bonded, and yes, she would be extremally grateful. But she wouldn't exactly owe Harry his life. She feel that she does, but in reality, she doesn't.

    Also, when you save someones life, you don't do it just so that person will owe you anything, you do it to save their life!

    Okay, I babbled and didn't really cover Snape too much... Sorry about that, I just couldn't resist posting my opinion.

    ~~Azhure~~

  7. #127
    Pinkcess of the Abyss
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    I may be wrong here, so if I am, forgive me.

    With reference to the whole life-debt debate I’m pretty sure J.K Rowling said that, as in the muggle world, a life debt is purely symbolic. There is no “magical bond” between those that are affected. It actually aggravates me when I read stories that place the sole emphasis on this magical “Life Debt.”

    I don’t think that Snape particularly cared about his life debt to James, especially with reference to Harry. There was some minor factor of the debt involved, but that only went as far as Snape’s pride and sense of honour. In the books I’m pretty sure that there are moments when it becomes clear that Snape is a very proud man; I think that is the correct word... He is a proud man who hates what he is... He would see owing James Potter a debt for his life as something tangible and extremely irritating. Imagine your worst enemy suddenly dove into the road and shoved you out of the way of an incoming bus, without thought for their personal safety. You would feel as though you owe this person something, but what is entirely beyond you. You don’t like this person and have no wish to like them; therefore your main goal is to find some way to pay them back.

    Harry was believed the life debt story simply because it was the only story that made sense, when in fact; Snape did what he did for Lilly. Dumbledore encouraged this belief, I believe, to protect Severus from Harry finding out.

    Now, this may not make sense when it comes down to Peter Pettigrew’s life debt, because he clearly pauses in his murder of Harry. However, I do not believe Peter Pettigrew is inherently evil. He is more of a coward that wishes only for protection, and he will do anything for that person who is protecting him. This life debt is purely psychological. Dumbledore tells Harry that the life debt will come in handy, and that it does. It does not prevent Peter, in the meantime, hurting Harry. Peter is a Gryffindor, and therefore values bravery and chivalry. When Peter was strangling Harry, Harry said, “I saved your life” or something to that affect (I forgot the actual wording) Peter then stops and second guesses himself. I don’t think this was a “magical” life debt working. It was simply Peter being confused about what he was to do; he knew he owed Harry, and his sense of chivalry caused him to pause, which was long enough for his own hand to turn on him, simply because he second guessed what he was doing.

    This, however, is not the place to discuss Peter’s life debt, but I felt it better explained the life debt of Severus. That being, it was all in his head, and in his sense of pride, honour and dignity.

  8. #128
    Benu_Horus_2006
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    Snape's patronus

    In my fic, I have Snape conjuring a patronus. But I have hit a roadblock, on deciding the patronus form. Any ideas??

  9. #129
    Rushia
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    We found out what his Patronus is in DH: a doe. It appeared anonymously out in the woods, and we later discovered that it belonged to Snape.

  10. #130
    cmwinters
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benu_Horus_2006
    In my fic, I have Snape conjuring a patronus. But I have hit a roadblock, on deciding the patronus form. Any ideas??
    Now if you mean a Patronus form *other* than the doe (i.e - before Lily died, assuming he lived, AU or whatever else), I always had very great conviction that his Patronus was a King Cobra, the reasons for which I can spew an inordinate amount of detail if necessary :P

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