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Thread: Severus Snape

  1. #101
    Elmindreda
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    You know, Sammy, the farthest I would go myself would be suggesting that on a certain level, definitely without admitting it to himself, Severus wanted to like Harry - exactly for the reason you mentioned - Lily's son.

    There is one issue I also wanted to explore... The first Potions lesson. Why did Severus *looks for synonims, finds none* well, start picking on Harry, for lack of a better word? An idea I had was that it was an act of lashing out at Harry because of Severus being angry with himself for having rather strong feelings upon seeing Harry - much stronger feelings than he would have allowed himself. All those memories, everything that Harry is, the child that could have (should have?) been his, and on top of everything - Lily's eyes.

    What do we do when we're angry at ourselves? In most cases, we lash out at the one who is the cause of that anger.

    And from there on, it was a vicious circle, really...

    However! Were Severus' feelings for Harry completely and utterly negative, he would not have given him all the memories that he did. He could have showed him the memories on a strictly need-to-know basis. Dumbledore's words about Harry being a Horcrux and needing to die should have been enough for Harry's information. Yet he showed him more.

    I may (and possibly am) be suffering from an acute case of idealization, but I believe that the fact that Severus gave Harry all the memories that he did can be summed up in the following:
    Quote Originally Posted by Severus' internal mologue in my fic
    With your dying breath, you sought forgiveness of someone who was not supposed to grant it...

  2. #102
    MissyQuill
    Guest
    A very good point love. Seeing Harry would caused Sev a lot of pain and bring out all the feelings that he had tried to supress for so long, even from himself.

    But then, he also did all those things for Harry and brave, loyal, honourable as he was, he was a human. Frnkly, a lesser man would have killed Harry on the spot as Harry was the reason Sev's life would never be happy, and Harry looked it too.

    And yet, he didn't kill Harry, left him at Voldemort's mercy or try to hurt him in any other way. Quite the contrary, which makes me feel.... that I need to read your fic.

    As far as letting Harry know the whole story instead of just what he needed to, I agree. Maybe it was too late for Lily to forgive him, but now, at least he would look in her eyes and try to beg for it. *Sniff*=Sammy

  3. #103
    hpheart
    Guest
    I found this site which has 45 or so reasons why Snape is not evil.

    Voila!

    Lets do this piece by piece shall we?

    1) I agree with that statement but I also think there was another reason that Sev didn't strangle Petigrew on the spot

    The reason Snape didn't strangle Petigrew on the spot is because as someone else has already said, having him around gave him a chance to relise that it wasn't just his fault that Lily was killed.

    2) Granted, he had no idea it was Lily that the prophecy referred to. I doubt he would have cared if it was someone else. Yet, doesn't that show that he is an essentially a selfish person? It only mattered to him that it ended up being the person who would never love him in return.

    No he wouldn't have cared if it was someone else, and yes he didn't who the prophecy referred to. But he still told Voldemort about the prophecy and therefore contrubuted to Lilly's death.

    3)He turned out to be a selfish coward

    I have to disagree with that. He didn't turn out to be a shelfish coward. He turned out to be a bit of coward for not telling Harry about everything he found out in DH before and only having the guts to do it when he realised this was his last chance.

    4)Coward usually refers to people who are afraid of something and Sev was only afraid for one person, and that was Lily. He NEVER cared about his own life, feelings, purpose, anything

    He was afraid for his life. He knew if Voldemort found out he was being double-crossed, Severus would have been dead on the spot, unable to continue protecting Harry for Lily.

    5)He didn't wait for something to happen. he told Voldemort to spare Lily and then, to double protect her, he went to Dumbledore.

    But attempting to double protect her didn't work did it?

    6)In fact, I would even go as far as too say Sev liked Harry by defoult.=Sammy

    Is there any evidence Snape liked Harry? No. Just evidence of him protecting him for Lily's sake.

    7)after all, were it not for Harry being the child of the prophecy, Lily may have been alive

    Lily may have been alive if Snape hadn't told Voldemort about the prophecy.

    8)Severus wanted to like Harry - exactly for the reason you mentioned - Lily's son.

    He didn't want to be Lily's son. he wanted to be her husband, or failing that, just to be told that she loves him.

    I think thats it for now.

    But first, my opinion on what happened on top of the tower at the end of HBP.

    Snape and Dumbledore could both theroretically project thoughts with Legimancy(sp?), so they could have had a whole convosation without anyone knowing. Therefore, Dumbledore could have told Snape to kill him, then run with Draco, thus fulfilling the Unbreakable Vow made earleir in the book.

    My 2 knuts.

  4. #104
    Elmindreda
    Guest
    he still told Voldemort about the prophecy and therefore contrubuted to Lilly's death.
    This is a canon fact. However, we (and by we I mean the defense) are not trying to clear Snape of the blame of contributing to Lily's death. The blame is there, and he blames himself as well. But the guilt and remorse are what guide his actions for the rest of his life. Were he not at all responsible for Lily's death, everything he did would have requires significantly less strength than otherwise. He was weighed down with his guilt, and actually going on with that on his soul required immense strength.

    He turned out to be a bit of coward for not telling Harry about everything he found out in DH before and only having the guts to do it when he realised this was his last chance.
    I maintain that it was not cowardice. The necessary occasion did not arise. And when it was necessary to tell, it was too late - he was branded for Dumbledore's murderer, and there was virtually no chance Harry would listen to him.

    Also... he never HAD to tell Harry about Lily. Can anyone give me a reason why he would want to tell him the story, except in that 'seeking forgiveness with his dying breath' way? It was not a story he could have told and lived with, knowing that Harry, James' son, knows it all. There's this thing called Pride... not just Gryffindors have it.

    He was afraid for his life.
    I believe that 'afraid for his life' means 'willing to do anything to save his life'. Like Pettigrew did. I believe that the only thing Severus was afraid of, especially after Voldy returned, would be Harry dying, and therefore, Lily's sacrifice being in vain. His own life he preserved only as means to protect Harry. So it was not fear for his life.

    Is there any evidence Snape liked Harry? No. Just evidence of him protecting him for Lily's sake.
    See my previous post.

    He wanted to be her husband, or failing that, just to be told that she loves him.
    I think we have a misunderstanding here. What I meant is that it would have made things much easier for Severus if he could have positive feelings for Harry, so I believe that somewhere deep down, he wished to like the child. But he would sooner die than admit it to himself.

  5. #105
    Fourth Year Gryffindor
    Snape Hates Me
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    Wow, what a lively debate. I’ve been thinking a lot about Snape, after some TQ responses in the Gryffindor Tower, so this is great. I wish I had this in some sort of coherent form, but I’ve just gone through the past posts and responded to things as they’ve struck me, so I apologize.

    I have to agree that it was mostly Peter's fault
    I have to disagree and go along with hphearts assertion that had Snape not betrayed the prophecy to Voldemort, Peter would possibly never have betrayed the Potters. They are equally culpable as far as I’m concerned. I find Peter (a bit) more repulsive, because he willingly betrayed his friends, while Snape merely sentenced unknown persons who might have been adversaries to death by revealing the prophecy. Of course, they could also have been perfectly innocent bystanders. Neither Peter nor Snape will win a prize for Good Guy of the Year from me, at any rate.

    So if we assume that his decision to go on and help Dumbledore protect Harry was motivated by guilt, although I personally lean towards remorse (the difference is subtle yet present), then it was not an act of selfishness. Because a selfish person seeks to gain something. He wanted no gain, and there was nothing for him to gain then.
    Counter-arguments, please.
    I think there was something for him to gain. I think it is very likely that there was a desire for revenge as well as the need to assuage his guilt. I also think he felt both guilt and remorse. He was guilty and he knew it and therefore, the remorse would be staggering for him. I do not think his doing these things was purely selfless. Repaying his debt to Lily was righteous, but it was also tainted a bit with the idea of revenge, IMO. Don’t get me wrong; I’m glad he did it and think he was brave and greatly redeemed himself, but I do not think it makes him a selfless and noble hero.

    If risking your life on a daily basis for someone who doesn't even know about it and who would never give you anything in return is considered selfish, then I guess we have a lot of selfish characters in the Potterverse.
    I would have to argue again that it wasn’t unselfish. He owed Harry—big time. He is part of the reason that a)Harry has no parents, b) Harry has led a less than wonderful life (to which all indications are Snape should have been able to relate) and c) that Harry has been hunted by Voldemort since he was a baby.

    He NEVER cared about his own life, feelings, purpose, anything. All he wanted to do was to keep Lily safe and for that. he would do ANYTHING.
    Well, he voluntarily joined the Death Eaters, most likely soon after school, if not before and he had to have known that Lily was going to be on the other side. She was a Muggle-born after all. It doesn’t appear that his love for her influenced him in his purpose until he learned specifically that she had been targeted. That seemed to be a constant flaw in Severus, viewing Lily as the only acceptable Muggleborn, and for someone so brilliant, it is really strange that he wouldn’t have realized this would make her a target of the group he had voluntarily joined. I think he cared about himself, and the beliefs of Voldemort to a large degree or he wouldn’t have made the choices he did. If he had only ever cared about her, I think he would have tried to fight against those who would harm people of her birth status from the get go. But he didn’t. Yet another reason for his remorse. I was so struck by the scene from the Prince’s Tale in DH when the portrait of Phineas Nigellus is reporting to Snape that Harry is in the Forest of Dean and Phineas calls Hermione “the mudblood” and Severus snaps at him, “Don’t use that word!” Severus learned a heartbreakingly bitter lesson. So, points for him.

    he DID go to Dumbledore straight away. He told Dumbledore what Volders planned to do and at THAT VERY MOMENT, HE SWITCHED SIDES.
    The thing about this that has always kept me from truly liking Snape, is that he did this for purely selfish reasons, and I know some would argue that he did it for Lily, but he only did it because of his feelings for Lily, not because she was an innocent person. He would not have tried to protect Alice Longbottom if Voldemort had decided Neville was the threat. Snape was willing to turn over an innocent baby and it’s parents….He was not a nice person. Again, he went a long way to redeem himself in the end, but…

    Severus was doing it to pay off the guilt he felt every time he saw Lily in Harry's eyes. He never liked the kid, he acted out of remorse.
    Agreed 100%.

    He had to live everyday knowing that he played a part, unknowingly, in his true love's death!
    But again, he knowingly and willingly chose to play a part in the death of whomever the prophecy spoke of, and I have to question if he would have felt the slightest remorse if the Longbottoms had been chosen. From his reaction, begging Voldemort to spare Lily at the expense of Harry and James, I have to say, I don’t think he would have. He was motivated by his own selfish desires, not any sense of right and wrong.

    He owed Harry nothing,
    I really have to disagree with this. As I said before, he bears a great deal of the responsibility for Harry’s fate. If I had helped lead to the death of a child’s parents, I would certainly feel an obligation to help that child.

    Frnkly, a lesser man would have killed Harry on the spot as Harry was the reason Sev's life would never be happy, and Harry looked it too.
    I have to disagree, once again. Harry was not the reason Snape would never be happy. Severus chose his own path long before Harry was a thought to Lily and James. Severus was the reason he would never be happy. Now, Harry was a constant reminder of Snape’s unhappiness, but it certainly wasn’t Harry’s fault.

    Were he not at all responsible for Lily's death, everything he did would have requires significantly less strength than otherwise. He was weighed down with his guilt, and actually going on with that on his soul required immense strength.
    Hmm…I think I have to disagree. *shock* If he had been forced to live on without the purpose of helping Harry, then I would definitely agree that the guilt would weigh him down. However, with that purpose ahead of him, I think his guilt would have given him more focus and determination and made it much easier to carry on, particularly when factoring in his hatred for Voldemort and the desire for revenge he must have felt. Revenge is a powerful motivator…not necessarily a righteous one, but very powerful.

    However! Were Severus' feelings for Harry completely and utterly negative, he would not have given him all the memories that he did. He could have showed him the memories on a strictly need-to-know basis. Dumbledore's words about Harry being a Horcrux and needing to die should have been enough for Harry's information. Yet he showed him more.
    Can anyone give me a reason why he would want to tell him the story, except in that 'seeking forgiveness with his dying breath' way?
    I have wondered about this, as well. Frankly, I felt that Snape was simply trying to explain himself, to make himself look better in Harry’s eyes—at first. He showed James being a berk, yet again, when he showed the first day on the train scene. Was he trying to diminish James? I don’t know. When I first read it, that was my initial thought, but I don't think that was all there was to it, now. The memories also showed Harry that Snape had always been quite prejudiced against Muggles and Muggle-borns. Snape let Harry see the scene where Snape causes the branch to fall and almost hit Petunia, then lie about it to Lily…so many of the scenes are all about the mistakes Snape made in being prejudiced. I have come to believe it was his final confession, to reveal how he had come to the place they were in at the moment. I also think he knew it would help Harry to believe the parts that he really needed to know, by allowing Harry to understand why Dumbledore trusted Snape. So, I do think there were selfish motives for Snape to show the scenes, but in a conciliatory way, as others have said, for forgiveness, but also to help Harry accept what he likely would rather take as lies from the Snape he had come to despise.

    I love that line, El. Believe it or not, I do like Snape. Well, actually, I think I just care for him, but I really don’t like him very much.

    Ack…must fix supper.

  6. #106
    cmwinters
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by BertieBottsBeans741
    What are Severus Snape's bad qualities? Examples? Excuses?
    Oh gosh. He's vicious, sarcastic, and psychologically tortures children do I really need to provide examples for that?
    • He absolutely torments Neville. Yes, Neville is pants at Potions, but he doesn't need to be publically humiliated for it, or mocked and ridiculed to the degree he is, particularly by someone who is supposed to be teaching him.
    • He mocked and publically ridiculed a 14-year-old Hermione about her teeth in a way that was not only entirely inappropriate and uncalled for, it was cruel and unsolicited
    • He does show blatant favouritism to the Slytherins; it doesn't appear he ever AWARDS points to anyone (not even Slytherins), but when the Slytherins misbehave, he doesn't dock points from them
    • He shows blatant and unwarranted dislike for Harry and treats him according to that blatant dislike. It is true that Snape loved Lily and Lily died and Snape could be blamed for it, and it is true that Harry looks just like James and James was a complete monster to Snape, and it is true that Lily died trying to save Harry, but none of those are Harry's fault. No, Harry didn't help matters by his own behaviour, but Snape is the (theoretical) adult in this scenario, and he's behaving like a spoilt seven-year-old child who didn't get his way. Even if Snape had openly supported the Dark Lord through the first war and could show dislike for Harry for "defeating" the Dark Lord, it was inappropriate behaviour in a school setting.


    All in all, he doesn't actually appear to like teaching, or at least not Harry's class, or maybe just not potions. I always had it in my head that he probably absolutely adored his 6th and 7th year classes, and his Huffepuff/Ravenclaw classes. 6th and 7th years have actually shown some aptitude and interest in the topic, as opposed to being there just because it's compulsory, the Hufflepuffs are hard working and likely to be very respectful, and the Ravenclaws are more apt to have, if not the innate ability that he posseses, then at least the academic interest that would make them apply themselves. With his biting attack on students, it's clear he's very impatient. I think part of Snape's problem was not so much that he LOOKED like James (which was a significant part of his problem), but that he didn't ACT anything like LILY. Lily seemed to have possessed the same innate ability in potions that Snape himself did, as well as an interest in applying herself to the subject; Harry seemed to possess none of Lily's ability or interest, (although to be fair, Harry possessed none of James' innate ability in Transfiguration, either). In any case, back to Snape; he's impatient, and I think this is demonstrated very well when he tried teaching Harry Occlumency; his instructions to Harry essentially consisted of "Just do it", and when Harry asked HOW, Snape didn't seem to be able to give Harry the step-by-step instructions he needed.

    At least for Occlumency, that may be because "just do it" *is* sufficient instruction for Snape, and that he simply doesn't understand how to put it in words that Harry can comprehend. Harry & Snape have very different mental structures, not just in what they know and how and what they learn, but how they deal with what they learn and how they approach unknown situations. So it's not surprising that they are different in how they approach an esoteric, ephemeral kind of knowledge.

    But Snape is also somewhat socially retarded and clearly misanthropic he seems to hold everyone but Lily at arm's length at best. The other faculty have no problem addressing each other informally; Snape is always "Professor this" and "Headmaster that". There's a clear difference when he's talking to Bellatrix and Narcissa (and Tonks), but for Tonks & Bella, he was clearly taunting them, and I think it's fairly clear he was expected to be familiar with the Death Eaters and their families, and certainly the wife of Lucius, who is supposed to be a life-long, best friend. But even then, it can be said he was playing a part.

    I think a lot of Snape's problems have to do with his upbringing. Some people shouldn't be parents and it appears that Tobias Snape and Eileen Prince are on this list. As much of an unimaginable jerk Snape was to everybody, at least part of that is the fact that his parents apparently not only didn't love each other, they didn't love love him either, and couldn't even be bothered to provide for his basic needs of food, shelter, clothing and bathing. The only reference Snape had for "normal" and for friendship and affection was Lily, and that largely seems one-sided. Lily does not seem to have valued their relationship the way Snape did until they were about fifteen in the beginning he was her sole and first connection to the magical world and she needed him for that reason, and later, he was her connection to magic during the summer months while she was forced to spend time with her nasty sister. But by the time they were really established at Hogwarts, where she would have had her own friends to be visiting and the means and opportunity to visit them during the holidays (I.e. her parents were likely to allow her to take the bus or whatever, to the closest location) she seems to have outgrown him, and he never did. And then, of course, he called her something completely unforgivable.

    Which brings us to racism and genocide. We don't really know if Snape himself was really racist, largely, I think, because by the time we meet him he's an adult and he's either completely suppressed that part of himself, gotten over it or never felt that way in the first place. Yes, he joined the Death Eaters, and yes, he called Lily a Mudblood, but without making excuses for that behaviour, let's analyse it.

    When Lily & Snape are first talking, Lily expresses some concern about her magical ability and asks him whether or not her heritage matters. Snape (entirely too early in his development to be having a full-blown crush on her, yet he seems to be doing so nonetheless) looks at her, pauses, and says no, it doesn't matter.

    The issue here is, clearly Snape KNEW it did, at least to SOME PEOPLE. And there really isn't much good explanation given for why Eileen was so fascinated with the Dark Arts OR why she married a Muggle in the first place. I mean, her son's gotten it not him that Slytherin's the best house to be in and the Dark Arts are the way to go; how'd he get this from a woman who married a Muggle? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and presume he DIDN'T get it from TOBIAS.

    But in any case, Snape knows it DOES matter, but only to some people. Rather, however, that worry his friend, he chooses to protect her and tell her that no, it doesn't matter.

    I don't, personally, see his hesitation as him thinking it mattered to him. Because if nine or ten year old Severus was truly that bothered by a Muggle being a witch, he wouldn't have spoken to her in the first place.

    Why, then, did he call Lily a Mudblood? Let's look at this situation here. Remember how much stress Harry, Ron & Hermione were under when they were taking their OWLS? We hear about it with Percy and the twins and the other students, too. Everyone's bordering on frantic. These tests directly determine what you're able to do with your life. For the Brits, it's like your A-Levels; for the Americans, this is like your SAT/ACT but it's like that for every single class you've taken (with a maximum of twelve).

    By this point, Severus has assuredly been harassed and harangued by his schoolmates and dormmates, who most certainly (judging by the fact most of them also joined the Death Eaters, out of their own volition, mind) WERE pureblood racists with an eye toward genocide. It's a sure bet that every time he walked in and had been seen with Lily, he had to defend his actions and use derogatory epithets to defend his behaviour, even if it was something like "that filthy Mudblood thinks I'm her friend, but I really just need her assistance on my Charms homework. I've assured her cooperation by helping her in Potions" or whatever.

    He's just walked out of an exam. Even in the subject he supposedly dominated from before he got to school, he's not sufficiently convinced of his performance on that exam to relax and soak up the nice weather; he goes back and checks all of his answers. Then along come his four tormentors (one of whom apparently nearly killed him, and recently, one who sent him to that near-death and the one person in all the world he can't stand in the first place, who saved him), who publicly mock him, symbolically emasculate him by taking his wand, then they basically strip him and compound the humiliation by putting him at an angle where every single person in the school can see him, and THEY ALL LAUGH AT HIM. The only person to come to his rescue is a *girl*; the girl he's interested in, no less. She's one person in all the world he MOST doesn't ever want to see witnessing his humiliation and the one person in all the world he'd most want to impress, which he can't well do hanging upside down with his knickers on display for all the world to see. And with the entire school watching, you can bet his dorm mates were among them, compounding his crimes to them by having a girl, a Muggleborn, and a GRYFFINDOR, come to his rescue.

    Does that excuse him calling her Mudblood? I don't think it does. Of all the people in the world, I would think Severus Snape, by that point inventor of Muffliato and the non-verbal Sectumsempra, ought to know that words (even the ones you don't speak) have power, and he absolutely shouldn't have said it, but I do question how tightly-held of a belief it really was for him, even at that point. And I would hope this analysis provides some very important context.

    So if he wasn't a racist and didn't have a stomach for genocide, why would he join the Death Eaters in the first place?

    I think it's very important to note that the one thing that Severus Snape seemed to lack most profoundly in his life up until he was a young adult was any modicum of control over his own destiny. He couldn't control his parents not loving him, couldn't control the environment he grew up in (poor and in an industrial Muggle are), couldn't control the fact that his parents didn't provide him with appropriate clothing or social skills, couldn't control that as a result he was a misfit and entirely too intelligent by half than his colleagues, couldn't control his appearance, couldn't control the taunting he received at the hands of the school pets/heros. I think the Death Eaters, and by extension, the Dark Lord, offered him control. Not necessarily power over another although that was likely offered as well, but power over HIMSELF, and power over his own life. They probably also offered him authority, respect, and position, and not a fair bit of money. No, money can't buy happiness but it sure pays the rent, and it appears that apart from the Death Eaters (and until his rather rapid employment at Hogwarts several years later), young Severus had no prospects for employment. Even wizards have to eat sometime, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpheart
    He was afraid his double-life might be found out by Voldemort, and so was afraid for his life and if he died he might die before being able to tell Harry that he was protecting him. I think that shows he was afraid for his life.
    I don't think being afraid of being tortured into insanity by Bellatrix the way the Longbottoms were and then ripped to pieces and eaten by Fenrir Greyback makes him a "coward". I simply think that makes him quite well aware of what monstrous crimes his brothers and sisters in arms are capable of. DUMBLEDORE didn't want to be tormented by Bellatrix so that he could be fed to Greyback, and i don't see you calling him a coward!

    Quote Originally Posted by iloverupertgrint
    And then become a spy for the opposition AFTER Lily had died? Wouldnt it have been logical to go to the other side as soon as he found out about the prophecy?
    He did go to Dumbledore immediately after he found out that the Dark Lord was targeting the Potters. He didn't go after he found out about the prophecy, because he didn't know to whom the prophecy referred. But the minute he found out the Dark Lord was targeting Lily & family, he went straight to Dumbledore and swore he would "do anything".

    BertieBotsBeans741, I disagree. I think he was doing it because he gave his word, and someone else (I know not who) said Severus Snape has a terrible, unyielding honor, and I think that's very, very true.

    Holy smokes. I'm going to have to go back and review this thread because a bunch of other replies have come in since I started this post.

    Okay, starting with Michelle's post:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Marauding Cupcake
    He could have easily let Malfoy kill Dumbledore, or fail as I suspect he would have. How many other would have had the courage to go through with what he did?
    I would like it noted for the record here that he chose to do this, he agreed to do this, under the impression he would be IRREPARABLY DSETROYING HIS OWN SOUL, which he did not for his own gain or protection (as if he were making a Horcrux), but for DRACO'S.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Marauding Cupcake
    Even in the end, he gave Harry everything! He owed Harry nothing, and yet he let him have the information he needed, wanted. All about his mother, about his destiny, about his life... Snape didn't have to do this. He could have slipped away without Harry ever knowing any of it. He did it for her, not himself.
    But bear in mind too, he also knew that unless Harry was armed with that information, Harry wasn't going to succeed, making not only Lily's sacrifice void in the end, and not only plummeting the Wizarding world into sure destruction, but also making Snape's acts over the last 20 years a waste of his time.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpheart
    Yes it broke his heart, but did that stop him being mean to Harry? No.
    True, but I've seen some Slytherin (house) apologists make a reasonably good argument for Snape's behaviour. I think it is unreasonable to believe that Snape truly felt like the Dark Lord was gone. Granted, he seemed to be convinced in the first hour or so, just like the entire rest of the Wizarding world did, but I think that as time went on, Snape would have figured out that the Dark Lord was coming back. Therefore, he also knew that he was going to HAVE to be in a position to justify his behaviour, later.

    Further, there is absolutely no denying that there is prejudice against the Slytherins in the books. Snape feeding the rest of them a bit of their own medicine is probably not all that unwarranted, although I grant he could have been a little less nasty about it (but for that, see the preceding sentence).

    Quote Originally Posted by MissyQuill
    Harry may have been James son but he was Lily's too. In fact, he was Lily's most prized posession so how would Sev ever hate him?
    Because Snape wanted Lily to love HIM like that (or anyone, really, but especially Lily).

    I simply don't think Snape liked Harry. I think he detested him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmindreda
    (I)t is no wonder that Severus' generally logical and reasonable mind tends to go out the window when it comes to Harry.
    Yes, but the one thing we consistently see making Snape's logical mind go out the window is his emotions, whatever they are. Whether it be being tormented by James, irritated with Harry, or shunned by Lily, this character who fights SO HARD to have control over his own emotions becomes nearly incandescent with rage at times. I think that gets back to the control issue I mentioned; Snape has had so little of that in his life it's like it's the one thing he CAN control is his emotions, and sometimes, he can't even control that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmindreda
    I can bet you ANYTHING that Snape thought exactly like that (except less politely) every single time that Harry managed to masterfully get himself in trouble.
    Absolutely. Further, Harry seems to show a general disregard of Lily in general. He idolises James, but he really seems to take Lily for granted. You'd think he, of all people, would note that it's not Harry being the Boy-Who-Lived who "saved" the Wizarding world, it's Lily who *sacrificed herself* that did it. And for all that, Harry seems to show remarkably little interest in Lily.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpheart
    I have to disagree with that. He didn't turn out to be a shelfish coward. He turned out to be a bit of coward for not telling Harry about everything he found out in DH before and only having the guts to do it when he realised this was his last chance.
    I abjectly protest. Snape couldn't have told Harry anything even if he'd wanted. Harry's pants at Occlumency, and Snape's life was on the line. And Harry's, by extension. And Snape knew all of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpheart
    Snape and Dumbledore could both theroretically project thoughts with Legimancy(sp?), so they could have had a whole convosation without anyone knowing. Therefore, Dumbledore could have told Snape to kill him, then run with Draco, thus fulfilling the Unbreakable Vow made earleir in the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Severus Snape
    "Only Muggles talk of 'mind reading'. mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by an invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing."

    I don't think it works quite like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonymaniac
    Snape merely sentenced unknown persons who might have been adversaries to death by revealing the prophecy.
    But he didn't sentence anyone to anything. He merely relayed a message. He didn't know what the Dark Lord intended to do with that information, other than protect himself, which need not NECESSARILY mean killing someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by moonymaniac
    Snape will (not) win a prize for Good Guy of the Year from me, at any rate.
    Thank the gods for that! I think he'd be horrified if he did! *wink*

  7. #107
    Elmindreda
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cmwinters
    he's impatient, and I think this is demonstrated very well when he tried teaching Harry Occlumency; his instructions to Harry essentially consisted of "Just do it", and when Harry asked HOW, Snape didn't seem to be able to give Harry the step-by-step instructions he needed.
    Actually, re-reading the first Occlumency lesson made me think of a number of things...

    It seems that at the beginning, Snape is being rather (surprisingly) civlized with Harry. He does provide him with an explanation as to why Occlumency is needed.
    Just before the first spell, he says
    "I have been told that you have already shown aptitude at resisting the Imperius Curse."
    May be my native paranoia, but this seems like a little bit of credit, if rather grudging.

    And then...
    "Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been."
    This statement spoken by Snape at Harry is as close as he would ever get to praise (see also: my native paranoia).

    After the next spell, however, let's take a careful look of what Harry sees:
    A great black dragon was rearing in front of him ... his father and mother were waving at him out of an echanted mirror ... Cedric Diggory was lying on the ground with blank eyes staring at him ...
    And when he comes round, he finds Snape
    paler than usual, and angier
    Now, I think that after Harry's almost-successful first attempt at repelling Legilimency, there MAY have been a part of Snape's mind that said 'maybe he isn't hopeless after all'. Harry obviously is among the 'fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves' and Snape,
    Quote Originally Posted by cmwinters
    this character who fights SO HARD to have control over his own emotions
    , can only think less of him for that.

    So at the beginning, Harry seems to be not completely hopeless just yet, maybe even some benefit of doubt is given... and then along came the memory of the Mirror of Erised. Wham. Any credit that may have been given before, forgotten. Any patience that may have been summoned, abandoned. Only anger remains, and all the more anger for the pain Snape felt seeing the mirror in Harry's mind.

    Now that was just theoritizing...

  8. #108
    cmwinters
    Guest
    ...

    You do know I am now going to have to incorporate this into my story, right? *sigh*

    (In a good way, of course).

    Although that brings up the layering of Snape that makes me dislike DH, but let's not get into that here.


    Anyway, I think it is also very important to note that in that scene, not only is Snape being reasonably civil to Harry, pretty much alone amongst the adults, Snape is the only one bothering to be honest with him. Yes, he's vicious. Yes, he's petty. Yes, he makes attacks out of things that he shouldn't. But he gives Harry answers, and nobody else is doing that. Not Lupin, not Black, not Dumbledore, not Molly, but Snape.

  9. #109
    bluexroses
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cmwinters

    Anyway, I think it is also very important to note that in that scene, not only is Snape being reasonably civil to Harry, pretty much alone amongst the adults, Snape is the only one bothering to be honest with him. Yes, he's vicious. Yes, he's petty. Yes, he makes attacks out of things that he shouldn't. But he gives Harry answers, and nobody else is doing that. Not Lupin, not Black, not Dumbledore, not Molly, but Snape.
    I agree. Even when he is escaping Hogwarts with Draco he (though in a cruel, derogatory way) continues to give Harry information. He blocks every spell, never once throwing one back because he knows Harry needs his wits about him to understand it. Yes, he was always horrible to the boy, but he was the only one to truly tell Harry everything he may have needed to know.

    Granted, he didn't reveal his love for Lily, but that is perfectly understandable. Harry didn't need to know it, and it would have been absolutely humiliating for Severus. Forget the fact that the object of Snape's affection was Harry's mother. Forget that Harry was James' son. Just to have a student know such personal secrets would be mortifying for anyone, not just Snape.

    There is really no need to list all of Snape's bad points. We all know them. The only real excuse for many of them is simply that he was not a nice man. Sure, he fell in love. Bad people (with the exception of Voldemort, but I consider him more evil) can still love. Everything he did up to the point of keeping Harry safe was done for selfish reasons. He did not ask Voldemort to save Lily for any reason other than she was the woman he loved. It wasn't for her, it was for his own feelings. I believe that everything he did to protect Harry was more out of a sense of duty than remorse. It was just something that had to be done, and he was the one who had to do it.

  10. #110
    cmwinters
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by bluexroses
    I agree. Even when he is escaping Hogwarts with Draco he (though in a cruel, derogatory way) continues to give Harry information. He blocks every spell, never once throwing one back because he knows Harry needs his wits about him to understand it. Yes, he was always horrible to the boy, but he was the only one to truly tell Harry everything he may have needed to know.
    Not only that, but as Snape is literally fleeing for his life, he turns around and is coaching Harry, telling him to learn non-verbal magic, telling him to Occlude his mind, and giving him a real demonstration as to why this is necessary. Snape isn't nearly as talented a Legilimens as the Dark Lord is, and Snape doesn't have the mental connection to Harry that the Dark Lord does, and even still, Snape demonstrates why it's so necessary to block one's mind, because Harry's so bent out of shape that he's veritably screaming "I'm going to stun you! STUPEFY!"

    Further, not only does Snape coach him (while he's fleeing for his life, have I mentioned that??), he also prevents the other Death Eaters from harming Harry, and even prevents them from abducting him. Because Lily's Love Protection or no, they could easily have grabbed Harry and kidnapped him, and dragged him off to some dungeon to keep him holed up there for two months with no food or water until he turned 17 and the protection wore off, and Snape prevented them doing that.

    Not Lily, not Dumbledore. SNAPE.

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