Severus Snape - Part II

[Equinox Chick]

Ha back again and not facetiously (new favourite word)

I have no doubt, he knew as did Regulus, Voldemort ensured some way of his not dying

I don't think at the time of Voldemorts downfall (in 1981) that Snape had worked out that Voldemort would survive. He seems fairly adamant on that point when he's talking to Dumbledore. I'm not saying he didn't work it out later but I doubt that. I'm also not saying he's not bright enough or that Regulus was cleverer but if he suspected horcruxes then surely he would have discussed his theory with Dumbledore. Regulus worked it out because of what Kreacher told him about V hiding the locket plus the Blacks were a family of Dark Magic and maybe horcruxes had been mentioned in that house. Snape wasn't at the DE reunion in Goblet of Fire when Voldemort talked about his 'immortality' in front of them.

By the time Snape joined Voldemort, he had already lost Lily's friendship and probably thought he had nothing else to lose.

By the time he officially joined Voldemort then, sure, he'd lost Lily's friendship but he was already well in with others who became Death Eaters, before then. He defends Mulciber's Dark Magic against Mary MacDonald as 'a laugh'. If Lily's accusation that he was already an aspiring Death Eater was false, at that time, then he could have denied it- but he didn't. To me it reads that he was already halfway down that path. I don't know how he imagined Lily would ever fit into that world, unless Voldemort's plans against Muggles weren't generally known to him but that seems unlikely. Perhaps he was secretly relieved that she stopped being his friend (contraversial moment)- just think of the strain of not being able to talk freely with her by his side all the time.

Carole

[SeverusSempra]

Here's a quote from a JKR interview that I find helpful on this topic: It's from July 30, 2007, and I am getting it from www.half-bloodprince.org.

"Q. Lily detested Mulciber, and Avery. If Snape really loved her, why didn't he sacrifice their company for her sake?"

"A. (JKR) Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive. He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater."

I can believe this (as something other than the author explaining away something difficult to understand). When he's having that conversation with Dumbledore on the hilltop, he seems to believe that if Lily (but not James and Harry) were saved, she could be his, and that wouldn't be a problem, somehow-- that she is, as he said when he was sixteen, different... and not just for him. Like the Death Eaters would just accept her? And just as he's blind to the fact that Lily is "different" only to him, he seems to be blind to the fact that there is no way that the Dark Arts are ever going to impress her. From the JKR quote above, it seems like she conceives him as thinking that the problem is not the Dark Arts, but that he's not yet a master of them, that he's not a powerful Death Eater yet-- and that Lily will be impressed with him and therefore will love him when he is. He seems (at 16, and to a lesser degree at 20 or 21) to be kind of trapped in his own viewpoint, not able to imagine that anyone would see these things that attract him so much-- both Lily and the Dark Arts-- in any way other than how he does.

[Lunia]

Hi, I have a problem. I am writing a Snape/Hermione fic, and so far I have started with a year or so post-war and Severus turns up on her doorstep. (he is alive, it is cannon and yes i did read Deathly Hallows - I am relying on the lack of funeral that he could have merely been paralysed and ASSUMED dead) Snape is a fairly normal person at this point.
Their former relationship (her sixth year - she was 'avoiding Ron') comes to light, and suddenly Severus finds himself having to explain to Harry, Ron and Minerva.
Here in lies the problem. I essentially have to write how they got together in the first place (which I was hoping to avoid, but my muse is apparently annoyed with me.)

The way I see it, Snape is seriously messed up. He has trust issues - first from lack of support as a child, and second from Lily, who he was obviously dependant upon, severing all ties with him ( I hasten to clarify that she was probably justified in this, I just don't think Snape would have seen it that way). He then suffers from further guilt from causing her death. He will probably also have a problem with expressing his emotions, partly from his childhood, and from the consequences of loosing his temper with Lily.

Let's face it. Hermione is not going to fall for this man, no matter how brave or courageous or intelligent she thinks he is. And neither does she hate him. From her constant correction of Harry and Ron we can assume that she respects him at least to some degree. So I cannot exactly have "oooh, I can't stand him" turning to the classic "Oh how did i not realise I am desperately in love with him". (I also know that Hermione is going to have to grow up a bit before Snape would fall for her, but don't worry, Hermione I can do. It's Severus that poses the problem)

So this is my question: How do I redeem Snape enough for Hermione to fall for him, how do I convert him into someone who is emotionally stable enough to allow himself to feel love (even if he won't admit it to anyone else) and how do I do both of these in a convincing way that SNAPE would accept?
I have my way in to the relationship - Snape needs to be needed. But what is my way forward?

What do you all think would be an event that could convince Snape that he is not actually a lost cause or Dastardly Death Eater, and is actually a Hero of the Order (except not quite that cheesy) and how do I persuade him to forgive himself.

P.S. If you don't want this on this thread, just flick me a v-sign and I'll bugger off.

From the almighty Luna

(or maybe just part-mighty)

[cmwinters]

So this is my question: How do I redeem Snape enough for Hermione to fall for him, how do I convert him into someone who is emotionally stable enough to allow himself to feel love (even if he won't admit it to anyone else) and how do I do both of these in a convincing way that SNAPE would accept?
I have my way in to the relationship - Snape needs to be needed. But what is my way forward?

What do you all think would be an event that could convince Snape that he is not actually a lost cause or Dastardly Death Eater, and is actually a Hero of the Order (except not quite that cheesy) and how do I persuade him to forgive himself.

So he survives. Is he tried for his crimes? Given an award? Both? I can't imagine that the answer to that question is "neither". You don't even necessarily need to address it linearly; he can make reference to it later.

I don't think that a surviving Snape is as much a martyr as some people make him out to be. He's basically the wizarding world's MOST powerful Occlumens, and part of having that ability entails being able to shut off the normal range of human emotions. If he were as overcome with guilt as some believe him to be, he'd have been a gibbering wreck upon returning to the Dark Lord after the meeting with Dumbledore on the hilltop.

I think part of that ability to shut off emotions requires, at least to some extent, the knowledge of what's going on in your own head. We really don't get the chance to see Snape in a truly social situation as an adult; he's almost always with colleagues or superiors of some form or fashion. But he's not a shrinking wallflower in any situation; he's confident (frequently to the point of arrogance) and determined. He has to know that what he was doing was necessary even if he didn't like what he was doing, otherwise he wouldn't have stood for it (or would have committed suicide or something).

Now, there are certainly things that he can feel guilty for; not just the death of Dumbledore but any murders he committed, witnessed or (to paraphrase Snape himself) just failed "to prevent". You could even have a scene where he's witnessing a particularly difficult one (a Muggle-born very young child or some such) where he has to analyze whether intervening now would bring about the end of the war or not, and deciding not and letting it proceed, and show him later wrestling with those sort of decisions.

As for forgiving himself; well, you could have Hermione help with that. He has a pretty impressive library, you know, and there's the possibility that they get to discussing books in a very innocent situation (a chance encounter at a bookstore or some such) and perhaps a platonic relationship builds from that.

[SlthrngNbltyWrtnINnk]

Okay, in my story, I'm currently on chapter 3 and Severus is in the first year. It's the first day of classes and he's in potions, trying to take notes, but he has no ink in his ink bottle. The girl beside him is annoyed by it so she pushes her ink his way, telling him t use it because he's annoying her. Should he take her up on the offer or just not take the notes?

How do you think an eleven year old Snape would react to things and how easily do you think a girl would be able to be his friend?

Thanks.
-SlthrngNbltyWrtnINnk

[Equinox Chick]

I can see Snape taking the ink from the girl, however grudgingly, because he'd want to take notes. If Lily isn't in the class with him (and I tale it she isn't) then his schoolwrokis always going to be more important.

Alternatively he could ask Slughorn for some ink, I don't think he'd have a problem doing that.

As for being the girl's friend. I don't think he'd want to be her friend. He has Lily, he doesn't need anyone else... yet.

Carole
xxx

[SlthrngNbltyWrtnINnk]

I can see Snape taking the ink from the girl, however grudgingly, because he'd want to take notes. If Lily isn't in the class with him (and I tale it she isn't) then his schoolwrokis always going to be more important.

Alternatively he could ask Slughorn for some ink, I don't think he'd have a problem doing that.

As for being the girl's friend. I don't think he'd want to be her friend. He has Lily, he doesn't need anyone else... yet.

Carole
xxx

Thanks. I honestly did not consider that alternative. Thank you.

[kilroy8031]

Lunia,

If I understood your question correctly, you are wondering how Hermoine and Snape could have ever have initiated a relationship. Here is what I could see happening:

Harry and Ron do something stupid in class or are up to their normal shenanigans, and to cover for them Hermoine takes the blame. Snape gives her detention over a month or so. He has her prepare potions ingredients and eventually assist in making potions for his potions stores. He rationalizes that he has way too much to do and that he would be foolish not to have the brightest witch in her year help lighten the load (but of course not tell him).

Hermoine being as smart as she is eventually figures out the potions they are working on are healing potions for victims of the dark arts and other nasty spells. Putting two and two together she realizes that Snape is making potions for himself for when he is injured in the course of spying on Voldemort. One night on her way out she mentions to him that she thinks that what he is doing is brave.

They don't really talk about it much more, on the last detention Hermoine offers to continue helping Snape on her own time. She says she thinks its a worthwhile way to spend her time and that its the only way she'll ever get to really help the Order (maybe she doesn't say that straight out, but implies it).

Now that Hermoine knows the repercussions of Snape being a double spy (she'd definitely know what potions they run low on, and deduce what was happening), Snape wouldn't be able to effectively shut her out and might begin to let her in more and more.

The relationship could probably begin to develop slowly from there.

[Inverarity]

Hermoine being as smart as she is eventually figures out the potions they are working on are healing potions for victims of the dark arts and other nasty spells. Putting two and two together she realizes that Snape is making potions for himself for when he is injured in the course of spying on Voldemort.

How is he getting injured? Voldemort isn't going to want his most prized agent to go back to Hogwarts covered with curses. I doubt the Death Eaters sit around throwing Crucio at each other for kicks.

One night on her way out she mentions to him that she thinks that what he is doing is brave.

And Snape sneers at her and tells her she's an idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about, and to mind her own business.

Now that Hermoine knows the repercussions of Snape being a double spy (she'd definitely know what potions they run low on, and deduce what was happening), Snape wouldn't be able to effectively shut her out and might begin to let her in more and more.

The problem I have with any Hermione/Snape relationship when Hermione is a student is that Hermione is a student. Although I detest Hermione/Snape as a concept, I grant that it's possible for them to somehow hook up after DH (assuming an AU in which Snape escapes his richly-deserved demise). But there is simply no way to write an adult teacher having an affair with one of his students that doesn't make Snape even creepier and more predatory than he already is.

[cmwinters]

How is he getting injured? Voldemort isn't going to want his most prized agent to go back to Hogwarts covered with curses. I doubt the Death Eaters sit around throwing Crucio at each other for kicks.

The Death Eaters probably do not but we have already seen the Dark Lord do it. And Snape was missing for nearly a week after going back to the Dark Lord in GoF. Somehow I doubt he was vacationing in Bermuda.

The problem I have with any Hermione/Snape relationship when Hermione is a student is that Hermione is a student. Although I detest Hermione/Snape as a concept, I grant that it's possible for them to somehow hook up after DH (assuming an AU in which Snape escapes his richly-deserved demise). But there is simply no way to write an adult teacher having an affair with one of his students that doesn't make Snape even creepier and more predatory than he already is.

Agreed (although I strongly disagree with it being his "richly deserved demise". Jo did a better job of painting LUCIUS as a reprehensible "deeply horrible person" than she did Snape, and Lucius got to live, but nevermind that). And I *LIKE* SS/HG!

Snape is pretty hung up on propriety and tradition. Whether this stems from him trying to fit in with the Death Eaters as a half-blood, his dislike of his (apparently abusive) Muggle father, his trying to impress his (presumably) pure-blood relatives, his own psyche or something else is really immaterial. But he calls Dumbledore "Headmaster" and the other Heads of House "Professor $whoever". I can't fathom a normal situation where he'd take a student into his bed. And he's entirely too prickly.

Having said that, my (nearly-abandoned . . . *sigh*) WIP does have a relationship of sorts between them with her as a student, but it's a farce primarily designed to keep him in the graces of the Dark Lord, was her idea in the first place, everything is above board, and she's of age. Even then he kicks and fights and screams almost the entire way.