Severus Snape - Part II

[Sapphire at Dawn]

Do you think the house Snape is living in in HBP is the same house he grew up in?
It's implied that he does; Petunia tells Lily when they're younger that Snape lives on Spinner's End, by the river, and the tone of her voice suggests that it's not a nice street to live on. The first chapter of HBP is called Spinner's End, and it's where Snape lives, by the river. So yes, I think you can safely conclude that it was the house he grew up in; you wouldn't buy a house on the same street if your parents had left you one there anyway.

I think the best idea for your second question would be to read a few fics that feature them as friends to get an idea of what it was that drew them together. For recommendations, you should post in the Fiction Junction forums

Sarah x

[Equinox Chick]

I don't think there's any evidence that he hated Muggles and Muggleborns. The only evidence is when he calls Lily a Mudblood, and that was after being hung upside down in his underwear and having people laugh at him. I don't think that's a fair assessment of actual hatred.

I don't have my books on me, but in The Princes Tale he snarls that Petunia is 'only a Muggle'. When Lily asks if being a Muggle-born makes any difference, he hesitates - to me that's clear evidence that he does believe it, but is making an exception for Lily.

Lily also says to him after the SWM incident ' You hate Muggles and all of my birth. Why should I be any different?' (paraphrasing) He does not deny that. I think he hated Muggles because of his father. He got drawn into hating 'Mudbloods' but made Lily an exception. He changed his mind, that much is clear after he chastises Phineas Nigellus for calling Hermione a Mudblood, (and explains why he didn't hate Hermione for being Muggleborn) but at some stage he had a very definite feeling of superiority and antipathy towards Muggles and Muggle-borns.

a list of Snape's good qualities? Or good qualities as Lily saw them? Or do you think they were as close (best friends) as they seem to be portrayed?

As Vorona said, he was the first person to tell Lily what she was. She stopped being 'a freak' as Petunia put it and became someone special. That would always remain with her, despite the other side to his personality.

He's bright, and he shares his knowledge.

He's loyal, but not blindly loyal. He supported Voldemort, but switched sides when a former loyalty was in danger.

I think the term 'best friends' by year five is more emphasized by Snape than Lily. She agrees - in a way - but it's clear they both have other friends (The girls by the lake for Lily, Mulciber and Avery for Snape). Snape's emphasizing the best friend aspect of it to draw her too him - he clearly feels much more for her than friends. Her reaction (she blushes) shows she knows (possibly subconsciously) how he feels about her and she steers the conversation into other waters. They're still friends, but he recognises that she's drifting away.

~Carole~

[hestiajones]

Sorry for the late entrance, but I just happened by this thread due to my occasional procrastination. I should be working, but Snape works me up more than...actual work.

Originally posted by Vorona:
And as for Hermione, he never refers to her blood status in any way -- the only things he has against her is her penchant for doing Neville's work for him and being too anxious to answer every question. He probably also dislikes her for being Harry's friend and helping him get into all kinds of trouble. If he hated Muggleborns, I think she would have suffered even more in his class than she actually did. He's worse on Neville, who's a Pureblood, and on Harry.

I think that by the time Hermione arrived at school, Snape had definitely got over his 'hatred' for Muggleborns. I'm automatically stating that he disliked Muggleborns early in his life, and I completely agree with Carole/Equinox Chick's arguments as far as that is concerned. No, with Hermione, it was something else. He already started ignoring her from day one because, as you said, she was too anxious to answer every question. This was before she and Harry even became friends. A good reason behind this could be the fact that Hermione belonged to Gryffindor. Snape disliked Gryffindor. He favoured Slytherin above all, but from what we can gather about his rivalry with McGonagall (over the Quidditch Cup), and his everlasting animosity towards the Marauders (dead ones or not), he especially stood against Gryffindor.

... a list of Snape's good qualities? Or good qualities as Lily saw them? Or do you think they were as close (best friends) as they seem to be portrayed?

Mmmm...Snape was extremely clever, intelligent and skilled. I don't think he was the type to bungle when it came to magic. He had serious flaws as a person, but as a wizard, he was really good.

He was brave and determined as well. It would take both bravery and determination to be the kind of double agent he was. He didn't sacrifice his cover for the sake of redemption in others' eyes.

Lily probably saw him as a kind and helpful friend, but I think those feelings changed over the years.

~Natalie.

[Maple_and_PheonixFeather]

Harry told Albus that he is named after two of Hogwarts greatest Headmasters, one being Slytherin, and he was the bravest man he ever knew. Also, he is dedicated and he has a good heart, as he does everything for Lily.

[lilyevansfan]

Harry told Albus that he is named after two of Hogwarts greatest Headmasters, one being Slytherin, and he was the bravest man he ever knew. Also, he is dedicated and he has a good heart, as he does everything for Lily.

But that's what also makes him bad. He went on the good side not because he changed his heart, but because of Lily. If Voldemort never threatened Lily, then Snape would still be a Death Eater.

... a list of Snape's good qualities? Or good qualities as Lily saw them? Or do you think they were as close (best friends) as they seem to be portrayed?

Snape is very brave, spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore. He is also intelligent and very skilled at magic. He is very good at Potions. He is also very loyal and a good friend to Lily.

I really don't think they were all that close, even in their first year. Lily was in Gryffindor, and he was in Slytherin. They were pretty close, like sitting together in Gryffindor-Slytherin lessons or something, but really, Lily had her own friends and so did Snape. He was only friends with her because he loved her and wanted to spend as much time with her as possible. But over time, they grew more and more apart.

[Vorona]

Equinox Chick:
I don't think either of those things are actual evidence. In the first instance, he could have been exposed to the theory and not yet be sure where he stood on the issue. There's certainly no evidence of hatred. He could even be hesitating because he knows how some people feel and knows that it *could* be bad for her because of those people's opinions. He's only 11 right then, so he might not want to get into the whole thing and potentially make her sad, so he doesn't tell her about the drawbacks of being a Muggleborn. I don't see that this hesitation automatically means hatred. There are lots of other reasons for it, and without being in *his* head, all we have are other characters' interpretations.

As for not denying it when Lily claims that he hates all Muggles -- not everyone immediately defends oneself against such an accusation, and he's never been a Gryffindor, no matter what Harry thinks of his bravery. Also, we only have one little snippet: it's quite possible he talked to her later about it. Or maybe he knows she's decided this about him, and is tired of trying to tell her he *doesn't* hate them. We don't know (again) how many times they may have had similar arguments. Maybe he's just given up. By the time that scene occurs, he's used to people choosing others' sides rather than his. There are lots of times and reasons people have for not immediately countering it when someone accuses them of something that is untrue. Again, without being in his head, we have no evidence here of actual hatred.

[hestiajones]

Originally posted by Vorona:

I don't think either of those things are actual evidence. In the first instance, he could have been exposed to the theory and not yet be sure where he stood on the issue. There's certainly no evidence of hatred. He could even be hesitating because he knows how some people feel and knows that it *could* be bad for her because of those people's opinions. He's only 11 right then, so he might not want to get into the whole thing and potentially make her sad, so he doesn't tell her about the drawbacks of being a Muggleborn. I don't see that this hesitation automatically means hatred. There are lots of other reasons for it, and without being in *his* head, all we have are other characters' interpretations.

I think Snape’s hatred for Muggles could come from his Muggle father, Tobias Snape, who seems like the kind of person who could have abused his son verbally and even physically. When Harry breaks through Snape’s memory in OOTP, we see Tobias as a “hook-nosed man” who “was shouting at a cowering woman” while “a dark-haired boy cried in a corner”. He also tells Lily that his parents are always arguing. Also, Snape chose the title “Half Blood Prince” because he much preferred his mother’s side, the wizarding side. There was Petunia as well, always taunting him. What I’m trying to get at is that Snape had reasons to hate Muggles.

Then, he came to Hogwarts, got sorted into Slytherin, and hung out with a bundle of Death Eater wannabes. Mulciber did something horrible to Mary MacDonald, but Snape defended him in front of Lily, saying it was just a laugh. Lily accuses him of calling every other Muggle-born a Mudblood except her.


I dunno. I feel like these evidences shouldn't be taken lightly. He does appear to have grown out of it later on, but his Hogwarts days? He seems to have gone for extremist pureblood ideals. Besides, it is advisable to rely on what we saw in the books, rather than our own surmises of what *could* have happened.

[zazzy7]

Hi everybody! I always wondered what a Snape/Hermione story would be called. ie. Hermione/Draco stories are called 'Dramiones.' What about a Snape/Hermione? I've heard of 'Snanger Danger' and I've made up the term 'Snamione.'

What do you guys think?

[Vorona]

I guess my point is that hatred is a really strong word. I don't necessarily think that Snape was all chummy with lots of Muggles, but hatred? I think that the various things done to Dudley Dursley are generally dismissed as "just a joke" because he's not very likable. So, I guess it's okay to do morally ambiguous stuff to Muggles if you're a Gryffindor, but not a Slytherin? Certainly Hagrid and the Weasley twins are never accused of hating Muggles or Muggleborns, but they engage in behaviors that are anti-Muggle.

Also, the conversation about Mary happened *after* several stunts against Snape by the Marauders, all of which were considered "just a joke." I think his anti-Muggle stuff was probably more out of habit than hatred, and his reaction to Lily as much a reaction against the Gryffindors who had been tormenting him for ages as an indication of his true feelings on the subject. Finally, we don't know the whole situation of what happened between Mulciber and Mary -- all we have is Snape and Lily's conversation about it.

As for his father, yes. I can see hating someone like that, but that doesn't automatically mean you hate all Muggles or Muggleborns. Look at the Dursleys and how Harry is with regard to that issue.

[hestiajones]

Uhm...I don't know if this is going off-topic, but I just want to say that I condone neither what Fred and George did to Dudley as a light joke - it certainly was a very dangerous thing to do, nor think that the Marauders were anything less than bullies.

However, the Weasley twins had their reasons for pulling that trick on Dudley. Dudley was not just "not very likeable". He used Harry as a punching bag together with his pals, remember? Harry suffered for years with the Dursleys. Moreover, I'm not sure if "various things" were done to Dudley. I can remember the one time Hagrid gave him a pig's tail, and then the incident with the Ton-Tongue Toffee, and in neither case was he attacked for being a Muggle. In Hagrid's case, Vernon insulted Dumbledore, whereas in the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident, the twins tell their father they did it because Dudley was a "great bullying git".

No matter how condemnable those actions were, they cannot be defined as "anti-Muggle". If I remember correctly, the twins pulled dangerous tricks on their own classmates and house-mates and even family members, while Hagrid nearly strangled Karkaroff for insulting Dumbledore.

As for Snape and the Marauders, I think both parties were equally culpable. Yes, the Marauders were bullies, and they unfairly targeted Snape, but Snape wasn't one to back down either.

Originally posted by Vorona:
Also, the conversation about Mary happened *after* several stunts against Snape by the Marauders, all of which were considered "just a joke."

I'm afraid you're mixing up Snape's memories here. The conversation regarding Mary did not happen after the "Mudblood" incident; it was the memory before that. Lily clearly states that what Mulciber did was "Dark Magic", and Snape does not deny it, but goes off tangent and brings up the Marauders. A few paras later, Lily says that "(The Marauders) don't use Dark Magic". (DH, The Prince's Tale.) I am wondering if Dark Magic was something appalling, why does Snape not defend his own friends in front of Lily, the Muggle-born he loved? Lily obviously is disgusted by whatever happened Mulciber did, then why does he dismiss that as "It was a laugh"?

Lastly, I am not sure if we can compare Snape's hatred for his father to Harry's immense dislike for the Dursleys. With Snape, there is something else going on: Tobias Snape is his own father, he's a Muggle, and an abusive man. Harry always had the benefit of doubt: he hears his parents were wonderful people from many sources, so he can easily imagine a "what if". Snape doesn't have that luxury.

It is also pretty clear Snape is more in favour of his mother's world, and his choice of nickname says it all.

~Natalie.