Severus Snape - Part II

[Gmariam]

I have another Snape question (three, actually...)

Do you think he would have gone home to Spinner's End for Christmas the year he was Headmaster? It seems like Dumbledore always stayed but as far as we know he didn't have a home to go to. We know Snape does but would it be his duty as Headmaster to stay? I'm kind of thinking he would stay, although circumstances that year were also wonky so maybe everyone went home. If he stayed, I have to figure out a way around that . . . >.<

Also, did he usually refer to Dumbledore as 'Professor' or 'Headmaster'?

Finally, now that DH is out, do you think Snape would have seen something about Lily in the Mirror of Erised? Or is it possible to write a story in which he sees something else? I'm not a big fan of the whole Lily obsession and find it perfectly believable that there were other things he might have desired, but that might just be me and my anti Snape/Lily bias. I wrote a story two years ago in which he saw himself free of the Dark Mark, trusted and respected. Is that so impossible after DH?

Thanks!!
~Gina

[Inverarity]

Do you think he would have gone home to Spinner's End for Christmas the year he was Headmaster? It seems like Dumbledore always stayed but as far as we know he didn't have a home to go to. We know Snape does but would it be his duty as Headmaster to stay? I'm kind of thinking he would stay, although circumstances that year were also wonky so maybe everyone went home. If he stayed, I have to figure out a way around that . . . >.<

By Christmas, he was dealing with rebellious students in a school run by the Carrows. I don't think he could afford to leave -- too great a likelihood of things getting completely out of hand with him gone.

Also, did he usually refer to Dumbledore as 'Professor' or 'Headmaster'?

"Headmaster," I think, but I don't recall for certain.

Finally, now that DH is out, do you think Snape would have seen something about Lily in the Mirror of Erised? Or is it possible to write a story in which he sees something else? I'm not a big fan of the whole Lily obsession and find it perfectly believable that there were other things he might have desired, but that might just be me and my anti Snape/Lily bias. I wrote a story two years ago in which he saw himself free of the Dark Mark, trusted and respected. Is that so impossible after DH?

Well, I sympathize, because I didn't like the Lily-obsession either, but I'm afraid from what Rowling has written, it's pretty clear that Lily was his single, overriding motivation, so it's hard to imagine that he'd see anything else but himself and Lily, together. I don't think he particularly cared about being trusted and respected by anyone else.

[PhoenixAscendant]

Do you think he would have gone home to Spinner's End for Christmas the year he was Headmaster? It seems like Dumbledore always stayed but as far as we know he didn't have a home to go to. We know Snape does but would it be his duty as Headmaster to stay? I'm kind of thinking he would stay, although circumstances that year were also wonky so maybe everyone went home. If he stayed, I have to figure out a way around that . . . >.<

He'd probably stay, unless every single student left, which to be honest, is actually a rather likely scenario. Almost everyone in Slytherin seems to want to go home for Christmas, and everyone who opposes Voldemort (just about everyone in Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw, plus quite a few Slytherins) would want to get out as soon as they could.

Also, did he usually refer to Dumbledore as 'Professor' or 'Headmaster'?

Actually, I think he normally referred to Dumbledore as 'Dumbledore'. I checked DH, and in 'The Prince's Tale' he keeps calling Dumbledore by name.

Finally, now that DH is out, do you think Snape would have seen something about Lily in the Mirror of Erised? Or is it possible to write a story in which he sees something else? I'm not a big fan of the whole Lily obsession and find it perfectly believable that there were other things he might have desired, but that might just be me and my anti Snape/Lily bias. I wrote a story two years ago in which he saw himself free of the Dark Mark, trusted and respected. Is that so impossible after DH?

After what we saw in DH, I think it becomes quite impossible to have Snape look in the Mirror of Erised without seeing Lily with him, alive and happy. He might see any number of other things too, but Lily would definitely be there. I'm not the biggest fan of Snape/Lily, but that's the way it is. After Lily died, he seemed to live the rest of his life because of Lily. He actually told Dumbledore that he wished he was dead, so he could be with Lily. After seeing all that and then having Lily not show up in the Mirror of Erised would require a severely OOC Snape.

[Gmariam]

Well, I sympathize, because I didn't like the Lily-obsession either, but I'm afraid from what Rowling has written, it's pretty clear that Lily was his single, overriding motivation, so it's hard to imagine that he'd see anything else but himself and Lily, together. I don't think he particularly cared about being trusted and respected by anyone else.

I guess I just see more to his character than a driving obsession with Lily Evans. Snape just doesn't seem the pining type, nor the type to believe something impossible would ever be possible. It seems to me that while he was motivated by love for Lily to turn against Voldemort, he was also driven by guilt and remorse. He didn't end up with Lily because of his association with Voldemort - what's to say he wouldn't see himself in the Mirror free of his past, so that he could have been with Lily?

After seeing all that and then having Lily not show up in the Mirror of Erised would require a severely OOC Snape.

Drat!
Or perphas it's just a different interpretation of Snape and not a case of being out-of-character? Again, I personally can see and believe there is more to Snape's character than a driving obsession with Lily. Frankly, I think it demeans the depth of his character to be reduced to such a thing.

See, I wrote a story before DH came out in which Snape saw himself in the Mirror, free of the Dark Mark, trusted and respected. That was before we knew anything about Lily Evans. I think trust was a big issue with him (respect as well) and believe both could definitely be something he would encounter in the Mirror. I'd like to retool the story to fit with canon, so I am just wondering if I really need to address the Lily issue. Any suggestions? Perhaps he sees Lily in the background? I really think there is more to him and that he would accept that she was dead.

Thanks!
~Gina

[Inverarity]

See, I wrote a story before DH came out in which Snape saw himself in the Mirror, free of the Dark Mark, trusted and respected. That was before we knew anything about Lily Evans. I think trust was a big issue with him (respect as well) and believe both could definitely be something he would encounter in the Mirror. I'd like to retool the story to fit with canon, so I am just wondering if I really need to address the Lily issue. Any suggestions? Perhaps he sees Lily in the background? I really think there is more to him and that he would accept that she was dead.

Well, the Mirror shows your heart's desire. Even at age eleven, Harry knew his parents weren't coming back from the dead, but that's still what he saw in the mirror. Likewise, Rowling has told us that Dumbledore saw his family together and happy -- he knew his sister was dead and gone.

Snape's heart's desire was Lily. He knew she was dead, but that wouldn't change what he really wanted.

Yeah, I sympathize with wanting to make Snape more complex, but... blame Rowling for that. In DH, she pretty much distilled his character down to guilt and pining for his lost, hopeless love. Even in his final moments, he wanted to look into Harry's eyes so he could see Lily's eyes.

He also showed, throughout the series, that he really didn't care what anyone else thought of him (with the possible exception of Dumbledore). I mean, he knew that he was hated and despised by the students, and he didn't seem friendly with any of the teachers either (none of them had trouble believing he'd been a Death Eater all along in DH). None of his behavior shows any inclination at all to win anyone's trust or respect.

I don't think you can write him as having accepted Lily's death and moving on to something like wanting love and respect and trust from other people without making him OOC.

The only thing I can suggest is that you could add a heavy element of guilt -- perhaps guilt at what he did is now his overriding motivation, and the reason why he doesn't seek friendship or trust; because he doesn't believe he deserves it. Thus, what he might see in the Mirror of Erised would be himself, freed of guilt.

I still see that being dependent on Lily, though -- because I think the only way he could ever be truly free of guilt would be if he believed that Lily had forgiven him.

(Or, I suppose, one could argue that Harry's forgiveness would also free him. In which case his constant abuse of Harry adds an extra level of self-punishment to his motivation, since he's making sure that the one person who can absolve him almost certainly never will.)

[PhoenixAscendant]

The only thing I can suggest is that you could add a heavy element of guilt -- perhaps guilt at what he did is now his overriding motivation, and the reason why he doesn't seek friendship or trust; because he doesn't believe he deserves it. Thus, what he might see in the Mirror of Erised would be himself, freed of guilt.

I still see that being dependent on Lily, though -- because I think the only way he could ever be truly free of guilt would be if he believed that Lily had forgiven him.

(Or, I suppose, one could argue that Harry's forgiveness would also free him. In which case his constant abuse of Harry adds an extra level of self-punishment to his motivation, since he's making sure that the one person who can absolve him almost certainly never will.)

Yeah, I can imagine Snape feeling so incredibly guilty that he thinks he doesn't deserve friends. Maybe he even believes what he did was so horrible that he doesn't deserve to be forgiven. I think you might be able to write a Mirror of Erised scene without Lily being in love with him, but she would be in the background, alive, and she would have forgiven him. To Snape, her happiness and her forgiveness might have meant something. At least it might have meant more than it did when he came to Dumbledore begging for him to save Lily but not James or Harry.

[Gmariam]

Thanks, guys! I really appreciate your comments. They made me think about the character and how I could maintain the original intent of my story while still adapting it to canon. I did add a few subtle references to Lily, to love, to Snape's guilt, and think I have managed to bridge the gap between pre-DH Snape and post-DH Snape. Thanks!

Now I just have to decide if I want to delete the two originals from the archive and resubmit them as the single story I've rewritten or leave them as they are. Given most of my stories were written pre-DH and I don't have much interest in rewriting them all, I'm leaning toward the latter. . .

Thanks again, Snape fans!
~Gina

[OliveOil_Med]

I don't feel like, if Snape had survived DH, he never would have gotten to the point where he would be over the loss of Lily, or ever be able to have a relationship with another woman. He would have enjoyed the fact that he would be able to live his own life, but the way J.K. has written Snape, I feel like having any sort of meaningful romantic relationship would be just to out of character. I have read stories attempting to show Snape finding love after DH, but none of them really seemed to be very intune with Snape's character. Not because the stories were poorly written, but just because it isn't something that's in his nature.

[Tutups]

The thing is though, that Snape did everything for Lilly. I Reckon if the fifth year 'thing' didn't happen they'd have married eventually unless Lucius stuck his oar in- I think Lucius and Draco are Snapes main concerns post OOTP and i've always seen Malfoy Snr as a sort of father figure to Snape since i read how quickly LM took SS under his wing (sorting feast in the memories).

i saw mention that Severus asked to look Harry in the eyes as a need to see Lilly but my opinion is that actually he's looking for absolution from Harry rather than clinging to Lilly's memory, and why would he at that? On the assumption that JK makes that there is an afterlife he'll see her again soon anyway...

I've read a lot of post DH AU Snarries but there's just too much angst in them. If Snape doesn't just revert back to being potions master and greasy bat of the dungeons post DH i think the only way he'd be able to have a life is in the muggle world away from the media spotlight Harry's revelations in DH must have provoked- and IMHO quite frankly he'd have hexed Harry into oblivion for naming Albus after him too.

[Equinox Chick]

I saw mention that Severus asked to look Harry in the eyes as a need to see Lilly but my opinion is that actually he's looking for absolution from Harry rather than clinging to Lilly's memory, and why would he at that? On the assumption that JK makes that there is an afterlife he'll see her again soon anyway...

Since when has Snape ever wanted absolution/forgiveness from anyone aside from Lily? He wouldn't let Dumbledore tell Harry the truth. He wouldn't let anyone know the truth about Lily. He certainly would not give a fig about Harry forgiving him because Harry - apart from the eyes - is a carbon copy of James, who he hated. If Snape wanted Harry to like him then he wouldn't have been so horrible to him throughout his time at H/W. He didn't need Harry's forgiveness; he was strong enough without it.

He might see Lily in the afterlife, but she'll have James tagging along with her.

Hmm, regarding the 'Mudblood' incident. Lily was already having doubts about their friendship. She says so in The Prince's Tale. He realised she was also starting to change her opinion of James. He was already mixed up with wannabee Death Eaters and truly could not see that this was wrong.

Snape loved Lily, that's true, but it seems as if at that point she only ever saw him as a friend.

I'm intrigued at you thinking Lucius would have had any input. Why on earth would he be interested in a half-blood sixteen year old when he's already in with the Dark Lord? Snape had nothing except his fearsome intelligence. I doubt Lucius was longsighted enough to recognise his potential. Lucius would not have cared about anything Snape thought or did at that age. He certainly welcomed him into Slytherin, but he was a Prefect, he'd have done that to anyone.

Carole