Gellert Grindelwald -- Warning: Some Slash Discussion

[Mozarts Confutatis]

Hello there, all.

While trying to write my current fan fiction, Der Magische Krieg, which centers on Dumbledore and Grindelwald amid the backdrop of the Second World War, I have realized something: we know next to nothing about Grindelwald.

So, because I have no fathomable interest in a relationship between GG and AD, (I consider that dead with Arianna) I thought it was high time to consult with the MNFF community of Fanon experts.

So, a few questions for you all to ponder to help me with:

Do you think Grindelwald would have been a willing accomplice to the Third Reich?

Do you believe that Gellert Grindelwald was a manipulative, schemey person (a la Voldie with his plotting) or a more succinct, violent person (a la Hitler)?

Would Grindelwald have held any respect for Hitler? Vis versa?

All for now, but I may come up with more while I write.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Hello there, all.

While trying to write my current fan fiction, Der Magische Krieg, which centers on Dumbledore and Grindelwald amid the backdrop of the Second World War, I have realized something: we know next to nothing about Grindelwald.

Der Magische Krieg -- I like that title.

Do you think Grindelwald would have been a willing accomplice to the Third Reich?

I talk about this at some length in this thread.

Anyway, I do not see Grindelwald as working in concert with Hitler. In fact, I see them as ideological enemies: Hitler is the Muggle nationalist, and Grindelwald is the pan-wizard/anti-Muggle internationalist (at least, that is how I see Grindelwald). They wouldn't be working together. In fact, I see Grindelwald trying to subvert Muggle governments, including the Third Reich, in preparation for a massive wizarding uprising against Muggles: the long-waited Reclamation, as I like to call it.

Do you believe that Gellert Grindelwald was a manipulative, schemey person (a la Voldie with his plotting) or a more succinct, violent person (a la Hitler)?

Grindelwald is described as exceedingly handsome. I think his personality and leadership style would play to that strength. I imagine him to be very charming, a good public speaker, and good with words -- he'd smile to show his perfect teeth and just talk you into doing whatever he wants. I think Grindelwald would scheme, but his greatest strength (like Hitler) is to make speeches and stir up the masses into a frenzy.

Would Grindelwald have held any respect for Hitler? Vis versa?

Since Grindelwald's ultimate goal was to destroy the Statute of Secrecy and assert wizarding rule over Muggles, I don't think Grindelwald would admire or like his future Muggle enemy. However, I do think he would have a grudging respect for Hitler, as the Muggle leader had come to power and mobilized the masses from such humble beginnings.

As for Hitler to Grindelwald, I think Herr Adolf Zahnbürsteschnurrbart would feel a bit resentful about the wizarding leader -- he can do magic, yet he is doing nothing to help the Muggle German armies. I think this anger might overshadow any kind of respect for Grindelwald Hitler might have.

Tim the Enchanter

[Mozarts Confutatis]

Tim, I must say, that's the best insult anyone's ever come up with for Hitler that I've heard, and I've come across some strange ones. Toothbrush Moustache.... Hehehe.


I can see what you're driving at, Tim, however I quintessentially think that Grindelwald's mind would have been more along the lines of "Let the Muggles kill each other, then reclaim Europe." However, of course, there would be the issue of conflicting egos with Grindelwald and Schikelgruber, so, I really don't see the two of them getting along at all, now I think of it.

But thank you for taking the time out of your (very early) morning to read my rather out there questions about a Wizarding Nazi-sounding Dark loonie.

[AidaLuthien]

Quick (and random) question:

I have the strongest image of Grindelwald being a classical musician. I don't know why. No, this fic won't be AU.

Anyway. Do you picture Grindelwald playing piano, violin or something completely different?

Elven Egyptian Princess
Tolkein + Verdi = awesome

[ToBeOrNotToBeAGryffindor]

Quick (and random) question:

I have the strongest image of Grindelwald being a classical musician. I don't know why. No, this fic won't be AU.

Anyway. Do you picture Grindelwald playing piano, violin or something completely different?

Considering Grindelwald's overall disdain for Muggles, I would think that would extend to their musical tastes and instruments. I would encourage you to create a magical musical instrument for him to play - wizards only. Maybe a magic calliope or organ.

[OliveOil_Med]

I don't imagine the use of instruments would be seen as complete Muggles (they use printing presses, wheels, staircases). And we do see wizards playing Muggle instruments, like the bagpipes in the Weird Sisters. I can't imagine that the wizarding world would completely forsake music.

What I think he would bemore interested in would be wizarding classical musicians (so no Beethoven or Chopin). What you could do is come up with well known wizarding composers and have him be a fan of those.

I also have a few questions about Grindelwald taking over Europe and possible parallels with Nazi Germany.


Do you believe Grindelwald actually concured European wizarding societies the way the Nazis concured countires?

What year do you think it was when Grindelwald came to power? How do you think this happened?

[Maple_and_PheonixFeather]

Do you believe Grindelwald actually concured European wizarding societies the way the Nazis concured countires?
It's quite possible, as he ended up being held prisoner in his own prison camp.

What year do you think it was when Grindelwald came to power? How do you think this happened?
We know he was defeated in 1945 and we know that Dumbledore turned a 'blind eye' so to speak for a few years until the cries of everyone became too great to ignore, so I'd say like somewhere between 1935 and 1940, as it only took a few months for Voldemort to gain power.

I always imagined Grindelwald being the Hitler of the wizarding world, as his regime and defeat lay within the same time period. It make sense

[AidaLuthien]

Do you believe Grindelwald actually concured European wizarding societies the way the Nazis concured countires?

I'm gonna presume you meant coerced.

Second, Austria joined the Third Reich willingly, through a popular vote and most people in the Sudetenland part of Czechoslovakia also welcomed the Nazis in.

I believe... Albania? No, not them, different Eastern European country, also willingly fought on the side of the Axis powers. Kind of hilarious story, since they had to come up with some reason why they were 'better' human beings and came up with some ridiculous story about being related to the Japanese.

Now that the history major has had her say, moving on.

If you believe that Grindelwald was a charismatic leader, then he may not have had to. There are people who joined the Nazis because they believed. Could various wizarding European powers have joined Grindelwald because they liked his ideas, sure, why not?

Grindelwald must have had more going on his political platform than just "wizards should run everything because Muggles can't run it themselves." He must have had some kind of idea about economic policies, social policies... otherwise, he probably wouldn't have been able to come to power at all.

Thought: Grindelwald being for wizarding domination over Muggles, might have encouraged marriages between pure-bloods and Muggle-borns, to decrease the power of traditional pure-blood supremacists. This makes him seem, at least initially, like a reformer.

What year do you think it was when Grindelwald came to power? How do you think this happened?

Depends on how ambitious you think he is. If you want to go Hitler metaphors all the way, then early 1930s. If you think he started slower and built up power for longer, then maybe the late 1920s.

The forces in play would be quite different. Although Grindelwald brings up obvious Hitler analogies, Hitler is brought to power through German anger at the depression and the Great War. He becomes popular because he gets Germany out of the depression. All that would be fine and good except he does it by building munitions and enlisting men into the army to give them work (you're gonna have to do something with your munitions and army, eventually) and he blamed other people (Jews, Gypsies, whomever was convenient) for dragging the German people down.

No Great War in the wizarding world (that we know of) and probably no Great Depression either.

So whatever Grindelwald did to get into power, it wasn't due to the same kinds of forces as Hitler.

Was Grindelwald popularly elected/elected by German Wizengamot? Sure, why not.

Could he have seized power afterwards, more completely? Napoleon did it. Hitler did it. Grindelwald probably would have. "And now, I declare myself First Consul for life." ... "And now, I declare myself Emperor." It could happen.

I don't see Grindelwald having seized power through a coup. To make him much more interesting than Voldemort, scarier, and if you like your Hitler metaphors, he's got to have come up through the actual governmental system.

[OliveOil_Med]

In the books, J.K. tends to write almost all foreign characters with their dialogue including the pheonetics of their accent, yet we hear Grindelwald speak to Voldemort, he speaks no differently than any other British characters.

Do you think this is because they were 'speaking' German, or does Grindelwald just not have a very heavy German accent? Why do you think this is?

[Tim the Enchanter]

Do you believe Grindelwald actually concured European wizarding societies the way the Nazis concured countires?

I presume you mean 'conquered.'

The answer is, yes and no. Yes for the administering of conquered provinces, and no for the physical act of conquering.

In regards to managing occupied territory, I believe the tactics used would mirror those used by the Nazis, as they are the logical things any ruthless conqueror would do. Grindelwald would enlist collaborators to help with the occupation, track down and murder/imprison potential resistance leaders, and take hostages to enforce good behaviour amongst the occupied. Regarding hostages, the Nazis would often kill ten or more civilians for every soldier killed by the resistance, if the people responsible didn't turn themselves in (they never did, most of the time). For this reason, even people like Charles de Gaulle discouraged internal resistance movements to avoid getting too many innocent civilians killed. Of course, sometimes the Nazis would wipe out an entire village or two as reprisals instead of just murdering a factor of ten for every soldier killed.

In regards to actually conquering the territory, Grindelwald's methods would probably look nothing like Hitler's simply owing to the fact that Grindelwald is a wizard in command of a wizarding army. Unlike in the Muggle world, magic can circumvent great distances and natural barriers almost instantly. Wizarding armies are thus absurdly mobile, and the ways wars are fought would reflect this. I believe it would be a lot of raiding and counter-raiding until one side seizes and occupies all of the enemy's major population centers. However, resistance movements would be a constant pest, since wizards can move around so easily.

I believe... Albania? No, not them, different Eastern European country, also willingly fought on the side of the Axis powers. Kind of hilarious story, since they had to come up with some reason why they were 'better' human beings and came up with some ridiculous story about being related to the Japanese.

That would be the Hungarians, actually. They claimed that the Magyars had some common ancestor with the Japanese, who the Nazis considered the best of the Asiatic races (otherwise they'd just be filthy Slavs to the Nazis). All of Germany's eastern European allies came up with some kind of explanation of a noble racial heritage, but Hungarians no doubt had the strangest.

What year do you think it was when Grindelwald came to power? How do you think this happened?

If you want to go with the Hitler analogy, go with 1933. But I like to imagine that he came to power earlier than that, in the late 1920s, to give more time to consolidate.

Like AidaLuthien, I find it doubtful that Grindelwald seized power in a coup. I believe Grindelwald attained power legally, and it took many years for most people to realise how dangerous he was (much like Hitler, actually).

In the books, J.K. tends to write almost all foreign characters with their dialogue including the pheonetics of their accent, yet we hear Grindelwald speak to Voldemort, he speaks no differently than any other British characters.

Do you think this is because they were 'speaking' German, or does Grindelwald just not have a very heavy German accent? Why do you think this is?

They were probably speaking English. Voldemort earlier in the book killed some German woman who was speaking in German, but he only spoke to her in English – this tells me that either doesn't understand German, or he's just a git.

Grindelwald might have learned how to speak excellent English with Dumbledore. Also, I personally wouldn't spell German-accented English any differently than normal English, unless you are going für der über-stereotypische akzent, JA?!?!?! Ve haff vays of making you TALK!

Lastly, Rowling probably didn't want to spoil the drama by putting the dialogue in a weird accent.

Tim the Enchanter