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Thread: Bellatrix Lestrange

  1. #11
    R_Ravenclaw
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistletoe
    Yes, yes, this is all very true, but the same. What drives her? Why is she the way she is? What is her motivation? What makes her tick?
    Basically, Voldemort. But that's simplifying it.

    I firmly believe that she was deeply in love with Voldemort, and if it weren't for his creepy lack of feelings thing, anyone would have to admit they're perfect for each other.

    Think of it, though. When Voldy got hit with the rebounding AK that night he tried to kill Harry, she (very shortly thereafter) tortured the Longbottoms just for him. She wasn't just in love with him, she was obsessed. What did Slughorn say? "Never underestimate the power of obsessive love" (or something like that). She might have loved torture, (I'm getting to that point in a moment…) but Voldemort gave her that last little push and just made her out-and-out evil. In short, Voldy was her only power and her only weakness. Yes, at the same time. Her power because he pushed her that little bit farther into total evil, making her conscienceless and an ultimately perfect follower. But he also made her have less ambition. She wouldn't have wanted anything but to be the perfect follower. Because, honestly, she was really evil, and could easily have gotten her own band of followers if it weren't for the fact she would never have betrayed Voldemort. Weakness and strength. The whole Bella/Voldy situation is so complex. I love it.

    But she just loved to torture, too, no doubt about it. I think she started out with a rather great joy of torturing. That's one of the few ways she and Voldemort differ. He doesn't see that there's anything worse than death, so he just kills with an AK, but I think Bella is more wise in that she knows there is something worse than death—she knows that being tortured is infinitely worse than just suddenly being killed. She likes to kill and torture and knows what she's doing.

    But, really, nearly everything can be brought back to Voldemort. But not quite everything. I mean, she had to have been evil when she joined him, so he can't shoulder all the blame for her utter evilness/insanity.

  2. #12
    Secret Seeker
    Guest
    Do you think she finds joy in torturing/killing others?
    Do you think she's in love with Voldemort, or is it just the power?
    Would she give her life for Voldemort, or is it more important?
    Does she really love Rodolphus?
    I'm sure that Bella really loved turturing and causing pain whatsoever. She herself said that you have to "mean it" when causing pain with a spell like Crucio. In fact, Crucio was Bella's own speciality, and she used it lightly as an Accio spell would be. When she tortured Alice and Frank Lobgbottom for infortmation, she did it until driving them into insanity as they wouldn't budge. And I'm pretty sure she never actually showed any remorse. Even when she encountered Neville, Alice and Franks's son, she cruelly and teasingly asked him how they were, probably knowing fully that they weren't much better. Bellatrix is quite close to Voldemort, who killed and tortured left right and centre. I think he was a major influence on her in fact.

    About Bella loving Voldemort. I think she did, yes. But, she obviously admired the power he had. It might be that she actually loved him for that. But what is sure, is that she would have gladly given her own life for Voldemort. That shows that she really loved him. Because the other Death Eaters (or some of them), I'm sure, wouldn't have liked it so much to get killed instead of Voldemort.

    No I don't think she did love her husband. She was a pure-blood, and it was quite probably an arranged marriage or quite so. She did what her family expected of her by marrying another respectful pure-blood, but I don't think she actually loved him. There might have been an infatuation, but that would have been all.

    How deep do you think her feelings run?
    I think they run deep. Even though there is lack of emotion when torturing/killing, for some things her feeling are very deep. Like her distaste againt the muggle-borns and families like the Potters and Weasley who mixed with muggles and muggleborns. She hated them profusely, and like the rest of the Death Eaters she thought that being pure-blood made you practically royal. And her feelings for Voldemort also ran deep, I'm sure.

    Yes, yes, this is all very true, but the same. What drives her? Why is she the way she is? What is her motivation? What makes her tick?
    I aggree with R_Ravenclaw that Voldemort was. As I said above she loved him and the power he had. I think that she also admired how he wasn't afraid to use spells and stuff other people would be scared to. Voldemort didn't have a trace of remorse or compassion, ever. He was purely evil. And if Bella wasn't so before she met/started to follow him, she really turned to be exactly like him. This was because Voldemort was her motivation. She admired and loved him and was so obsessed with Voldemort, that she would have done anything for him. With this, I think it is fairly clear that her emotions run very deep. At least emotions to do with this subject.

    Just mt two cents there .

  3. #13
    mecredi
    Guest
    I agree with what a lot of people have said here, but the idea that she is in love with Voldemort and the idea that she is a sadist are contrary to one another.

    If you look at the diagnostic criteria for diagnosing a sadistic personality disorder, she definitely has one. But true psychopaths aren't capable of love. They might love the idea of controlling someone, or think they love someone, but they don't. Sadistic people would express their sadism in their relationship to be the dominant one. Bella certainly doesn't have control over her relationship with Voldemort.

    I think Bella really just has an intense respect for Voldemort because he is the only one she can't control or hurt. She views him as a God, as her Lord. I think she is wildly devoted to his service, but that is very different from "love."

    I think her main drive is to be dominant and assert her control over everyone else. Her one and only love is power and control, and Voldemort is just the representation of that for her.

    Basically, I think she is not only has a sadistic personality, but is actually clincally insane. Like if some psychologists evaluated her, she would probably be condemned to an insane asylum. Though, if psychologists evaluated really any of the HP characters, they would all be put away.

  4. #14
    R_Ravenclaw
    Guest
    Let me just start off by saying that I have never taken psychology and never intend to. But I do think I understand Bellatrix.

    If you look at the diagnostic criteria for diagnosing a sadistic personality disorder, she definitely has one. But true psychopaths aren't capable of love. They might love the idea of controlling someone, or think they love someone, but they don't. Sadistic people would express their sadism in their relationship to be the dominant one. Bella certainly doesn't have control over her relationship with Voldemort.
    Of course Bella is sadistic and mentally insane! I'm not going against that at all. But I do think that it was possible that she loved Voldemort. And I believe she did.

    Simply speaking, love cannot be defined, and an assessment that Bella was incapable of love should therefore not be able to be drawn.

    But disregarding that, she wasn't Voldemort. She didn't split her soul into eight pieces. Just because she happens to enjoy torture as her favourite pastime does not necessarily mean she couldn't love. From where she was standing, she was doing the right thing. We might think she's "wrong", but it's all relative, right?

    I think Bella really just has an intense respect for Voldemort because he is the only one she can't control or hurt.
    I also think that's one of the reasons she began to follow Voldemort, but if she felt no affection for him, she probably would have actually tried to dominant over him. And I think it's pretty safe to assume she was always a follower. Because if she hadn't been, she would be dead.

    If her brain hadn't been clouded by this insane love that she held, she might have tried. But, as I said about three posts ago, her love for Voldemort made her less ambitious.

    She views him as a God, as her Lord. I think she is wildly devoted to his service, but that is very different from "love."
    But what is a god other than someone you love so deeply that you want to follow them? To Bellatrix, her love for Voldemort became was that powerful. Her love for Voldemort was so strong, so pure, so utterly perfect in her eyes that he became her "religion"—her reason for being.

    I honestly believe that Bellatrix was so in love with Voldemort that he became her "everything". Obsessive, yes. Completely obsessive. But I don't see why she couldn't have been in love with him.

    Compare Bellatrix to someone so completely racist that they kill people of other races for that reason alone. It might not be right to us, but it's right to them, correct? Of course. But, continuing in that frame of mind, couldn't that same person come home to a family and love them completely, protecting them and wanting them more than anything in the world? Just because they seem to have no conscience and are apparently terrible people when looked at so simply does not mean that they can't love. Perhaps Bellatrix is at the extreme end of this example, but it fits.

    Plus, she acts differently around Voldemort than she does around anyone else. She's weirdly sweet and devoted. Maybe I am ridiculously biased—she is one of my favourite characters—but the evidence is there. She's in love with him. There's no other explanation for her behaviour.

    And, as always, we could just go straight to the source:

    Quote Originally Posted by J. K. Rowling
    She took a pureblood husband, because that was what was expected of her, but her true love was always Voldemort.
    "Poor Rodolphus" is all I can say. I love Rodolphus.

    Okay, just one more thing…

    Though, if psychologists evaluated really any of the HP characters, they would all be put away.
    Um… Joke, perhaps?

    Well, that's about all from me. Sorry if any of that sounded ranty.

    ~Alison

  5. #15
    mecredi
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by R_Ravenclaw
    I honestly believe that Bellatrix was so in love with Voldemort that he became her "everything". Obsessive, yes. Completely obsessive. But I don't see why she couldn't have been in love with him.

    Compare Bellatrix to someone so completely racist that they kill people of other races for that reason alone. It might not be right to us, but it's right to them, correct? Of course. But, continuing in that frame of mind, couldn't that same person come home to a family and love them completely, protecting them and wanting them more than anything in the world? Just because they seem to have no conscience and are apparently terrible people when looked at so simply does not mean that they can't love. Perhaps Bellatrix is at the extreme end of this example, but it fits.

    Okay, just one more thing…



    Um… Joke, perhaps?

    Well, that's about all from me. Sorry if any of that sounded ranty.

    ~Alison
    My arguement is based on the idea that there is something called true love, and that an obessive love is not it. So it just depends on what you want to believe about the nature of love.

    I'm not arguing that her cause is wrong, making her an evil, sadistic person. If someone tortured someone awful, and, sure, evil, and enjoyed it, I would still call them psychopathic, even if I agreed with their reasoning behind it. It's not the ideals Bella represents that I'm challenging, I'm saying that anyone who enjoys torturing and brutally murdering someone is mentally unhealthy regardless of the reasons they did it for.

    Yeah, the last part was kind of a joke, in that if any HP character saw a psychologist and explained to them that magic was real, they would be put away. Or that psychologists think everyone is unhealthy in some way.

  6. #16
    cmwinters
    Guest
    I agree with Mecredi.

    First off, someone who is truly a sociopath doesn't have the ability to process the emotion of love. Yes, I am fully aware that I"m the one who said that in the first place ("that" being that Bellatrix is a sociopath and a sadist, *and* that she was in love with the Dark Lord).

    If you look at the diagnostic criterion for a true sociopath, they don't love ANYONE. They *can't*. The average person doesn't understand this, thinking that whoever "just hasn't met the right person" or whatever, but as I understand it, this is a fundamental inability of the brain or the brain structure to be able to process that emotion. I know that in *PSYCHOPATHS*, there is a distinct, profound, and unique neuropathy; the physical layout of the brain lacks the structure necessary to process emotions like empathy regardless of desire or upbringing — I'm not entirely sure about sociopathy.

    And when I say "lacks the ability" I mean "people can't fly by flapping their arms" "lacks the ability". This is not "if you were more devoted/a better person/whatever you could do this" kind of thing. It is, as I understand it, absolutely not possible. Under any circumstances.

    Having said all that, I really think Bellatrix is truly mentally ill, although I personally absolutely lack the credentials to diagnose her (having never taken a college class in my LIFE, much less am I a psychologist).

    Secondly, and I get into this very briefly in my Dark Arts class, let's just assume for the moment that HP universe magic is *real*.

    Process that for a few moments, because it's really important that you come to that understanding that for the sake of this discussion, it literally has to be possible for someone to point a wooden stick at someone and kill them, or cause them torturous pain, or send a messenger, or bend them to your will.

    Take ANY ONE of the HP characters — it doesn't even need to be one of the ones with a propensity toward mental illness — and send them to a psychologist. Send, say, Dean Thomas.

    If Dean (who, remember, in our argument is a *real* person with *actual* magic) says to a *real* psychologist "so I used my wand to cast $spell at $character and they $reacted in such-and-such a way" . . .and Dean will be locked up so fast it will define comprehension.

    That, I think, is the point Mecredi was trying to make.

    Having said all that, I think the average person (that is to say, just about anyone without a degree in psychology) tends to lack a true comprehension of what a TRUE sociopath, or a TRUE psycopath, really is. That list certainly includes me, and it may even include Jo, who POSSIBLY may have meant to portray Bella as *both* a sociopath and someone who was truly in love with the Dark Lord.

    And maybe with magic, anything's possible!

    cm (who's in an unusually optimistic mood)

  7. #17
    FullofLife
    Guest
    In love with him? Or in love with what he is - what he symbolises - what he has. That may be a better question. I agree with cm and mercredi, when they say that psychopaths and possibly sociopaths are simply without the power to love. This is a disability that usually does not occur at birth, but after birth, usually in the first few years of life. Hopefully I'm remembering this correctly.

    But does Bellatrix ever exhibit any real love for Voldemort? Voldemort, the person, I mean?

    Take a look at what Jo said:

    She took a pureblood husband, because that was what was expected of her, but her true love was always Voldemort.
    Jo could quite easily have meant here that Bellatrix was in love, not with Voldemort the person, but with what Voldemort symbolises - limitless power and pure evil. If this is the case (it doesn't necessarily have to be) then we can't say this is "love" - it's an obsession. Lust. Overwhelming desire. Lust and love (the kind we're talking about - affectionate love) are different.

    Or maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

  8. #18
    R_Ravenclaw
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by FullofLife
    Jo could quite easily have meant here that Bellatrix was in love, not with Voldemort the person, but with what Voldemort symbolises - limitless power and pure evil. If this is the case (it doesn't necessarily have to be) then we can't say this is "love" - it's an obsession. Lust. Overwhelming desire. Lust and love (the kind we're talking about - affectionate love) are different.
    To me, you just described exactly how the other Death Eaters see Voldemort. To them, he's someone who has this amazing power that they all want so badly—but never get. That's how they feel about him. They lust after his power, which is why they follow him, but, as a person, they hate him and fear him.

    But everyone has to admit that there's something out there that sets Bella apart from the other Death Eaters. She wasn't there because she wanted anyone's power.

    And what is it? I think it's Voldemort himself. She's his most loyal servant for a reason. She didn't just wake up one morning and decide that she wanted power, and picked the random guy killing everyone. That was what the other Death Eaters did. But she's different. She wanted to be there. With Voldemort. The way you talk about it, she would have been the same way with anyone trying to achieve the same thing Voldemort was. But it couldn't have just been that. She's more insane, more evil, more awesome. More dedicated because there's something driving her besides this love of power.

    And something had to drive that. I think it's love for her Dark Lord, but you might disagree.



    *clears throat and glances around, wondering if anyone out there agrees*

    Oh look! I think I see someone!

    *watches as a lone piece of paper falls silently to the floor*

    Or not…


  9. #19
    MissJewell
    Guest
    kritchen--I think she would be pretty cruel, seeing as (I think) she told Andromeda that she was no longer her sister.

    I have a question of my own: Did Bella become a Death Eater before or after she married Rodolphus? I'm pretty sure it was before, but I just wanted to make sure.

  10. #20
    cmwinters
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MissJewell
    I have a question of my own: Did Bella become a Death Eater before or after she married Rodolphus? I'm pretty sure it was before, but I just wanted to make sure.
    We don't actually know.

    However, there was *a* Lestrange male that was hanging around the young Tom Riddle, and he would be the right age to be Rodolphus & Rabastan's father, so you could conceivably say it was either way, because we know the Black family as a whole supported the Dark Lord even if they weren't actively Death Eaters.

    Personally, I see her as quite independent, and joining the Dark Lord or not as she chooses, but I also see her as cunning enough to use the Lestrange's long-standing relationship with the Dark Lord to her own advantage. So maybe she pursued Rodolphus based on his father being a known supporter of the Dark Lord?

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