Sirius Black

[Hpfanmgd14]

I think that Sirius was a very well rounded character - despite the fact that we've only heard of him in only the first book, but we've seen him in books 3 through 5 (it's a shame, really. It wasn't enough time for Harry to know him thoroughly). Anyway, I see him as a person who, ever since he sat at the stool at Hogwarts and was declared, "Gryffindor!", has been neglected by his family, which caused him to be very rebellious.

Yeah, no one knows what he was truly like in his school days (except during Snape's worst memory), but I think that even though girls were after him, he was trying to find the right kind of girl, whom never appeared in his life or if she probably did exist, she moved on when he got arrested (and so left him).

Sirius was one of my fave characters and he still is, but I find my self doubtful about him being gay though (I'm not much of a Sirius/Remus or anything, so yeah...).

Other than that, who is exactly human and doesn't really have any feelings at all? (I agree with you guys: Sirius was somehow full of passion *smiles*) In most of my fics I write him off as someone witty, sarcastic sometimes (but only to be funny), lovable, and sometimes I write him off as the best friend who gives advice when his friends need it (most of the times to James). Sometimes I find myself wondering why J.K. didn't give him someone to be with (I mean, Remus, the poor guy, had Tonks for a while...).

[red haired mom]

Before I get too far into this post... I have to say cmwinters and I actually agree on pretty much every point she made in her last post. That is rather amazing to me, seeing as how a few pages back we were 'arguing' differents sides.

Now- on to what I wanted to say.

I think that Sirius was a very well rounded character - despite the fact that we've only heard of him in only the first book, but we've seen him in books 3 through 5 (it's a shame, really. It wasn't enough time for Harry to know him thoroughly). Anyway, I see him as a person who, ever since he sat at the stool at Hogwarts and was declared, "Gryffindor!", has been neglected by his family, which caused him to be very rebellious...

Yeah, no one knows what he was truly like in his school days (except during Snape's worst memory), but I think that even though girls were after him, he was trying to find the right kind of girl, whom never appeared in his life or if she probably did exist, she moved on when he got arrested (and so left him).

Sirius was one of my fave characters and he still is, but I find my self doubtful about him being gay though (I'm not much of a Sirius/Remus or anything, so yeah...).

It might have been from Severus' pov, but we did see him in DH. And, you have to give Severus his due- he never shied away from anything that painted him in a bad light. He gave Harry the memories, even the ones that showed him in not so great moments. I'd say they were unvarnished and showed an accurate portrait of everyone that was included in that Pensieve journey.

Now- on to Sirius-
His family, in my opinion, treated him like the heir apparent of the Noble House of Black, until the day he 'defected' and went to Gryffindor. He might have done as Harry did and had a thought of 'Not Slytherin' which then allowed the Hat to put him in Gryffindor, or he might have just been more suited to Gryffindor... we may never know. But, from the comments he made during his conversations with Harry at Grimmauld Place, I'd say that yes, his parents either ignored and neglected him, or they ridiculed him for being 'impure' enough to be in an inferior house.(I use that phrase as a paraphrase from a couple of drabbles I wrote on the interaction between Sirius and Walburga while he was in school)

He was rebellious before he went to school. It was just called a different name, spoiled rotten, is what I would call it.

Sirius Black is my favorite character. No one who has read anything I've written about him or with him as a character can deny- I love the guy. BUT! And this is the one I've said numerous times... He was a spoiled little brat that had a sense of entitlement that bordered on being extremely annoying. When things didn't go his way- he found a way to get attention and usually made someone else look stupid or injured them in some way. He was extremely selfish and never made any effort to put himself out for anyone. That's not to say he didn't love and respect a few people. He did. Just not many. But even then, he thought more about himself than he did a friends feelings on what to do for boredom... "I'm bored, wish it was a full moon." Remus certainly wouldn't want a full moon any time soon, but Sirius wanted to play and as far as he was concerned, that's all that mattered.

As far as the SWM and the girl he ignored... she was behind him. He wasn't paying attention to her because he couldn't see her and he was too busy giving James a thumbs- up. While Harry was looking at Sirius, that's what he saw. After Harry's attention went on, he might have shifted and seen the girl, we don't know. But, I'll chime in on the gay issue, I have no doubt that he was straight. There just wasn't any reason for JKR to give him a girlfriend when he wasn't meant to give Harry a home.

In the 800 word 'prequel' that JKR wrote, she showed James and Sirius in true Marauder fashion, flouting laws (both magical and Muggle) and laughing it up while fighting Death Eaters in an alley with two Muggle Policemen and wearing t-shirts that had huge golden phoenixes.

I don't know about you, but that just irritated me. We had a pretty heated discussion in the 'Claw tower on it and I for one will keep my own impressions and opinions of Sirius without that to influence it.

I suppose I'm through for the moment. Although, I do expect some people to 'take issue' with some points I made.

~Wendy

[MerryD]

-sneaks in for first time-

Sheesh, we're like, hogging the Sirius thread now. lol.

I, like Megan, don't have a problem with it either. It was highly entertaining and full of information.

mmmhm. I totally agree. In fact, I think he would probably rather be single than date a bunch of girls. He just seems like that sort of type to me, that he would date, but not outrageously, not every single girl that wanted it.

I agree with you here. I can't see him dating every single girl that fell at his feet, but he'd date a few girls, some seriously and some not-so-seriously. I think he'd enjoy being single as well, he'd be independent with no tying him down, expecting him to do something. I really hate when authors have him making-out in a broom closet every night of the week with a different girl. I mean, honestly! Sure, he's a guy and he's attractive and he has hormones, but he's also human. Can you picture any human making-out every night with a different person?

Oh, I guess while I'm the subject of him dating, I believe he's straight. We've had nothing at all to indicate that he'd be gay. Except for one scene where he ignored a girl. -snorts- That makes a lot of sense. Just because he ignored a girl doesn't mean he's gay... For all we know, that girl could have been really pissing him off the day before or something.

So, really, neither of these characters were perfect -- far from it, in fact, and they were both very real and human characters -- and both of them went through a lot of horrible events in their lives. Snape had tragedy in his past -- all through his life, really -- but, SIRIUS did as well.

Basically, if a person wants to point accusations on one character, they need to be sure that those same accusations can't be pointed towards the other

Oh, I totally agree with you here. The grudge was very immature and stupid, but it was on both parts. Neither party stepped forward to make amends. So, yeah, Sirius was at fault, but so was Snape. And Snape had the normal-est life at of the two of them, so he should have been more willing and able to say, 'Look, this is stupid, let's just forget it.' But, he didn't, so he's just as much to blame.

My point it, the scene in Snape's Worst Memory was ONE scene. Just ONE hour or whatnot in the life of Sirius when he was 15 or 16 years old.

And we all do incredibly stupid things when we're fifteen and sixteen. It's part of being a teenager.

Sirius is from an old and tradition-laden family, and he was sixteen. It's entirely possible a marriage was arranged for him by his parents, and he may have even liked the girl. He hadn't yet run away from home when that scene happened (so if he was scheduled for an arranged marriage, it was still probably "on" at that point)

Hm. I disagree with you here. While I think that it's entirely possible that he was in an arranged marriage, I don't think he would still be considering that late in him fifth year. He ran away after his fifth year, so the whole year was probably leading up to it, which would probably include rebelling against his family where ever he could, like refusing to follow through in an arranged marriage. So, I don't see anyway that it could still be "on," at least in his opinion, by the time his OWLS rolled around.

I certainly don't think that Harry was *better* off with the Dursleys and while he may have become a prat like James had he stayed with Sirius, I don't think Sirius was a completely bad influence on Harry.

Again, I have to disagree with you. It's like Tiff said, Harry was his own person. I think that deep down, Harry never would have been able to be a prat because he was too much like Lily. Didn't Dumbledore even say something like 'On the outside he looks like James, but his deepest nature is most like Lily's'? I don't have DH with me right now, so I'm not entirely sure of the wording, but it was something like that.

Honestly, guys never grow up! No matter how old they are they still act like they're 12. Sure, some can be mature in certain situations, but they're all still usually always a child at heart. It's the same thing with fictional characters.

-dies laughing- It's so true. A twenty-something guy is mostly a twelve-year-old guy with stronger hormones and *hopefully* better manners.

I think that Sirius was a very well rounded character...

Sirius was an EXTREMELY well-rounded character. He has his obvious bad points and his obvious good points. He's probably one of, if not the most, human character in the entire series.

It might have been from Severus' pov, but we did see him in DH.

Err... Actually, a Jo said that a pensieve is from a complete outsiders POV. Snape's personal opinions and feelings would not have shown through, so it doesn't matter that we see him in from Snape's POV.

He was extremely selfish and never made any effort to put himself out for anyone. That's not to say he didn't love and respect a few people. He did. Just not many. But even then, he thought more about himself than he did a friends feelings on what to do for boredom... "I'm bored, wish it was a full moon." Remus certainly wouldn't want a full moon any time soon, but Sirius wanted to play and as far as he was concerned, that's all that mattered.

That's a bit harsh. I wouldn't go as far to say that he was extremely selfish. Extremely arrogant and extremely conceited, yes, extremely selfish, no. He probably was a little selfish (who isn't?) and, I agree, that he was spoiled a lot as a child, but I don't think that selfishness is a strong defining characteristic of his. He did say something really selfish without any regard to for his friend's feelings, but he said that ONCE. In ONE scene that we saw him in when he was fifteen or sixteen. Fifteen- and sixteen-year-olds are incredibly stupid. They say things that they shouldn't or without thinking ALL THE TIME. I know, I am fifteen. It's sad, but so true. So, I don't think that it's fair to say that he's selfish because he said one selfish thing ONCE when he was fifteen/sixteen. Have I mentioned that fifteen/sixteen-year-olds are just selfish and shallow in general? It's just part of who we are at this stage in life.

As far as the SWM and the girl he ignored... she was behind him. He wasn't paying attention to her because he couldn't see her and he was too busy giving James a thumbs- up.

lol. That's so true. I doubt Sirius has eyes out of the back of his head or can sense girls staring at him longingly.

Wow... That turned out a lot longer than I was expecting... -sighs-

Peace out.

-Mere

[leahsm2]

In the 800 word 'prequel' that JKR wrote, she showed James and Sirius in true Marauder fashion, flouting laws (both magical and Muggle) and laughing it up while fighting Death Eaters in an alley with two Muggle Policemen and wearing t-shirts that had huge golden phoenixes.

I don't know about you, but that just irritated me. We had a pretty heated discussion in the 'Claw tower on it and I for one will keep my own impressions and opinions of Sirius without that to influence it.

~Wendy

*Sigh* the t-shirt There I was enthralled in new Potter, and they had on "Order of the Phoenix" t-shirts! Depressing!

[red haired mom]

Err... Actually, a Jo said that a pensieve is from a complete outsiders POV. Snape's personal opinions and feelings would not have shown through, so it doesn't matter that we see him in from Snape's POV.

True, but what I meant by that statement was Severus gave Harry the memories. He didn't hold any of them back, not even the ones that didn't 'really need to be there' or the ones that showed himself in a bad light. I was just pointing out that through those memories we did see more of Sirius in DH.

That's a bit harsh. I wouldn't go as far to say that he was extremely selfish. Extremely arrogant and extremely conceited, yes, extremely selfish, no. He probably was a little selfish (who isn't?) and, I agree, that he was spoiled a lot as a child, but I don't think that selfishness is a strong defining characteristic of his. He did say something really selfish without any regard to for his friend's feelings, but he said that ONCE. In ONE scene that we saw him in when he was fifteen or sixteen. Fifteen- and sixteen-year-olds are incredibly stupid. They say things that they shouldn't or without thinking ALL THE TIME. I know, I am fifteen. It's sad, but so true. So, I don't think that it's fair to say that he's selfish because he said one selfish thing ONCE when he was fifteen/sixteen. Have I mentioned that fifteen/sixteen-year-olds are just selfish and shallow in general? It's just part of who we are at this stage in life.

-Mere

This is part of a couple of posts I made in the discussion we had in the 'Claw tower after the 800 word 'prequel' was made available that I mentioned earlier:

I'm not critisizing Sirius, or at least not much, I'm critisizing JKR for the way she portrays certain characters.

I love Sirius Black. There isn't another character in the books that comes close to him, but, I just wish she could've shown a different side to him at some point.

We have all the cliche's of him being a playboy, a prankster who never takes anything seriously, and a brooding sulking selfish man who thinks the world should revolve around him. That's from JKR partially, and lots of fanfiction authors.

JKR might like Sirius, and she might call him one of her favorites, but, and I gotta stress the but, she does write him one dimensionally. At least when I write him, I let him do more than sulk, crack jokes, and torment people that really haven't done anything more to him than exist. (Yes, I know James said that, but do you really think Sirius wasn't thinking it too?) I write him as a person with different aspects to his personality, not as a show-off that runs around in a Phoenix T-shirt, throwing Muggle Policecars at incoming brooms, laughing and joking at the same time...

I do see his flaws. He’s arrogant, conceited, spoiled, and almost has a sense of entitlement that is annoying. He’s resigned to the fact that he might have to be in a House he doesn’t particularly want to be in, so he admits to maybe winding up there. When he’s put into Gryffindor, he finds someone just like himself in enough ways to make them an indomitable duo...

Severus, James, and Sirius all three had major issues. They each had insecurities that they masked with other behaviour, and they all three had superiority complexes about other things.

I’m sure that during their seven years at Hogwarts, they all tried to ambush the other on occasion. Whether in revenge or just to attack for the fun of it, either way, it’s wrong. I will say one thing about the curse/hex/jinx debate before I finish this. In SWM, (it’s being used as an example above, so I’ll use it here) James uses the ‘lesser’ jinxes and hexes. Severus does the first thing that comes to mind, a curse that will cause the most damage that he also invented. I’m positive Sectumsempra is the curse he used there. He couldn’t swing his wand very much, so he flicked it slightly, just enough to lay open James’ cheek.

In the bathroom scene with Harry and Draco, Harry is flailing his wand around wildly, which causes huge gashes to open across Draco’s chest and face. The wand movement gives the severity to the curse. Is Severus any less guilty for using it just because he only layed open James’ cheek than Harry for almost killing Draco? No.

Is James any less guilty for trying to drown Severus in soap bubbles than Severus for laying open his cheek? No.

Is Sirius less guilty for starting the entire thing in the first place by preying on a smaller and less popular kid than he? No.

They are all flawed, that’s why we love them so much.

That's just a small portion of my side of the discussion.

As to him only saying something once at the age of fifteen and being judged on it forever- well, considering his actions and comments throughout all the books- I'd still say he was selfish and inconsiderate of others when he wanted something. He could be thoughtlessly cruel to his friends, as shown, but he could also be wonderfully thoughtful by doing his best to become an animagus to be with a friend in need.

I can't say it enough... no person is perfect. Not even a fictional character. If he were perfect then we'd be bored stiff with him and move on to discuss other characters that had more depth.

~Wendy

[Equinox Chick]

True, but what I meant by that statement was Severus gave Harry the memories. He didn't hold any of them back, not even the ones that didn't 'really need to be there' or the ones that showed himself in a bad light. I was just pointing out that through those memories we did see more of Sirius in DH.

I agree with so much that's been said on the board but want to be picky about this point. I don't think Snape was in any fit state to sort out which memories he gave Harry- he was close to death after all- he gave Harry the memories he needed and to explain why he, Snape, had acted as he did.

With regard to all the hexing etc that the Marauders did on Snape (and vice versa I'm sure). The students of Harry's day do it all the time. Angelina gets jinxed before a Quidditch match (POA). Fred and George jinx countless people. Harry does 'that toenail thing of the Prince's' on Crabbe. Malfoy causes Hermione's teeth to grow, Ginny perfects the Bat Bogey hex and uses it on someone (I think it's Zacharius) because he's annoying her.

In SWM we see (as someone else said) one moment from Snape's life. Yes James and Sirius are picking on him and it is bullying BUT we don't know what else has gone on. They are arrogant but imo many 16 yo are. And it's SWM not because he was dangled upside down but because he called Lily a Mudblood.

If Sirius hadn't gone to Azkaban then I think we would have seen a more 'Remus-like' person. By that I mean a maturer person who could put grudges to one side. But that is, of course, only my opinion.

I don't see Sirius as a 'player' either although 'chick magnet' is a good term. I think he was more fond of The Marauders and being in a gang because at home he's isolated. As for Sirius being gay- I think JK would have told us by now- mind you she'd incur the wrath of all Sirius' fans so she'd have to go into hiding first.

[cmwinters]

People are continuing to condemn Snape for refusing to "forgive" Sirius Black, and in the same breath not thinking it all that untoward that Sirius never asked for forgiveness, never felt badly about what he did, and gave every indication, including saying so in so many words, that he'd do it again given the chance.

Frankly, there's nothing TO forgive, there.

Now, if Black had gone to Snape and said "whoa, 12 years in Azkaban showed me the error of my ways, and Merlin, but I was a prat!", I don't think Snape *would* have forgiven him, but the fact of the matter was, Sirius continued to taunt and torment and flaunt his humiliation up until the day he fell through the veil.

I wouldn't forgive Black under those circumstances, either.

Why Snape is at fault for this, I simply can't understand, although perhaps that's better dealt with in Snape's own thread.

It's *BLACK* who continues to call Snape "Snivellus" twenty years later. It's *BLACK* who continues to make a big deal of how badly Snape was humiliated in school. Snape *can't* forget about it even if he wanted to, because Black brings it up at every available opportunity, including when it is woefully inappropriate to be doing so.

[TCole]

People are continuing to condemn Snape for refusing to "forgive" Sirius Black, and in the same breath not thinking it all that untoward that Sirius never asked for forgiveness, never felt badly about what he did, and gave every indication, including saying so in so many words, that he'd do it again given the chance.

Frankly, there's nothing TO forgive, there.

Now, if Black had gone to Snape and said "whoa, 12 years in Azkaban showed me the error of my ways, and Merlin, but I was a prat!", I don't think Snape *would* have forgiven him, but the fact of the matter was, Sirius continued to taunt and torment and flaunt his humiliation up until the day he fell through the veil.

I wouldn't forgive Black under those circumstances, either.

Why Snape is at fault for this, I simply can't understand, although perhaps that's better dealt with in Snape's own thread.

It's *BLACK* who continues to call Snape "Snivellus" twenty years later. It's *BLACK* who continues to make a big deal of how badly Snape was humiliated in school. Snape *can't* forget about it even if he wanted to, because Black brings it up at every available opportunity, including when it is woefully inappropriate to be doing so.

All right, I'm going to be completely honest here, love. Everything you have just said... that's basically Sirius's character. That's how is character is. He would never go up to anyone and admit that he was a prat in school. He would never apologize for anything that he did. Or at least, I don't see him doing that at all. Especially not to Snape. And honestly, I think I've said this before... I, personally, believe that Snape deserved every single thing that he got when he was in Hogwarts. You keep saying that Sirius should have stopped bringing it up, that he should have apologized, that he's the one that is at fault here, but not once did you put any of the blaim on Snape, at least I haven't seen you say anything like that.

Snape never changed his attitude towards Sirius either. Yeah, Sirius did continue to taunt him, but just because he was in Azkaban for 12 years doesn't mean it's going to completely change him. It basically made him insane. It would make ANYONE insane. I'm sure if the tables were turned, and Snape was in Azkaban for 12 years, and he came out, and Sirius changed his attitude towards him that Snape wouldn't even give Sirius the time of day. Just because Sirius was in Azkaban doesn't mean that he's going to be sitting in there thinking "Oh, I was a complete prat in Hogwarts, I should apologize to Snape as soon as I get out." No, he wouldn't think that. He was probably thinking "I'm going to kill Peter as soon as I get out." That's more plausible than the whole apologizing the Snape thing. It's how Sirius's character is. He's not the type that would go and apologize to someone. He's arrogant, and his pride would hold him back on apologizing. He would never want to admit that he was wrong in the past and all that. It's just how he is as a character. I don't think I can stress that enough.

And in response to what you said in the first paragraph of your post... Sure, back when they were in Hogwarts, sometimes Snape didn't do anything that would call for the way Sirius and the rest of the Marauder's acted, but 99.9% of the time, he did. He put himself in those situations, and like I said before, he deserved what he got. I never liked Snape as a character, ever. I despise him, to be completely honest. But, he was a necessary character.


Again, as I've said throughout this post, it's how his character is. Even if he wouldn't have been killed, I don't think he would EVER have apologized to Snape. Even if he was forced to.

[megan_lupin]

People are continuing to condemn Snape for refusing to "forgive" Sirius Black, and in the same breath not thinking it all that untoward that Sirius never asked for forgiveness, never felt badly about what he did, and gave every indication, including saying so in so many words, that he'd do it again given the chance.

Oh, and here's that quote from PoA, by the way:

Black made a derisive noise.

"It served him right," he sneered. "Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping he could get us expelled ..."

I'm not condemning Snape for refusing to forgive Sirius. I'm just saying that I have a problem when people don't point accusations to BOTH characters, rather than just one of them.

I've said this before, but it definitely bears repeating where Sirius and Snape are concerned: Neither of these characters are perfect! They're both human and realistic, so with their good qualities, they also BOTH have faults. Snape is not completely innocent in any of the situations, but neither is Sirius.

Yes, I do agree that some writers portray them in such places, but that's not the way I've ever seen either of them. I'll admit to not being a huge fan of Snape myself, but like whenever I write a character I'm not fond of (or downright detest, like Peter), I still try to be fair to the accurate portrayal of their character.

So yeah, one of Sirius's faults on the Snape front is that he *did* imply in PoA that he would send Snape to the Whomping Willow again. He *didn't* grow up as much as he should have, but Tiffany has a point in that his focus in Azkaban was probably not anywhere near contrite on his teenage mistakes. Only a few things probably occupied his mind, and thinking that he was a prat to Snape while younger was definitely not one of them - and I wouldn't think that would be in ANYONE'S thoughts in those situations.

Now, if Black had gone to Snape and said "whoa, 12 years in Azkaban showed me the error of my ways, and Merlin, but I was a prat!", I don't think Snape *would* have forgiven him, but the fact of the matter was, Sirius continued to taunt and torment and flaunt his humiliation up until the day he fell through the veil.

Well, at least you're acknowledging the fact that even if the impossible happened and Sirius actually *asked* for forgiveness, Snape wouldn't have given it. As a matter of fact, the way I've always felt Snape's character is, not only would he NOT have granted the forgiveness, he would have gone further and done his OWN taunting about it.

And it wasn't like he was completely innocent and free of the fact that he did his own taunting in canon as well. Sirius was not the only "taunter" between the two of them, and while we don't know a great deal about the past of these characters, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to guarantee that Snape wasn't just the innocent victim/target 100% of the time.

I've also said before that it doesn't exactly help any mending of the relationship between Sirius and Snape when the first time they meet in over a decade, Snape attacks Remus without even listening to what he has to say, and immediately threatens the Kiss:

"Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you ..."

"The joke's on you again, Severus," snarled Black. "As long as this boy brings his rat up to the castle --" he jerked his head at Ron "-- I'll come quietly ..."

"Up to the castle?" said Snape silkily. "I don't think we need to go that far. All I have to do is call the Dementors once we get out of the Willow. They'll be very pleased to see you, Black ... pleased enough to give you a little kiss, I daresay ..."

What little colour there was in Black's face left it.

"You -- you've got to hear me out," he croaked. "The rat -- look at the rat --"

Now, technically speaking, there is no "taunting" on Sirius's part in this exchange. He even calls Snape by his first name -- not "Snape", not "Snivellus", not anything else other than his first name (and I think this is the only spot that we *ever* see him calling Snape "Severus", as a matter of fact).

I will acknowledge, though, that Snape may not be thinking perfectly clear, what with his grief for Lily and all that. (Although a part of me wants to make a case for more blame concerning Lily's death to fall on Snape's shoulders rather than Sirius's, but that's for some other time.)

Heck, he even threatens Remus in the whole thing:

"Come on, all of you," he [Snape] said. He clicked his fingers, and the ends of the cords that bound Lupin flew to his hands. "I'll drag the werewolf. Perhaps the Dementors will have a kiss for him, too --"

Now, was this just Snape being a big, bad bluff and "playing the role" or what?

And yeah, he wasn't completely innocent on the taunting front during canon:

"At least you've known what's been going on," he [Harry] said bracingly.

"Oh yeah," said Sirius sarcastically. "Listening to Snape's reports, having to take all his snide hints that he's out there risking his life while I'm sat on my backside here having a nice comfortable time ... asking me how the cleaning's going --"

"What cleaning?" asked Harry.

"I am here on Dumbledore's orders," said Snape, whose voice, by contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish, "but by all means stay, Black, I know you like to feel ... involved."

"What's that supposed to mean?" said Sirius, letting his chair fall back onto all four legs with a loud bang.

"Merely that I am sure you must feel -- ah -- frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing useful," Snape laid a delicate stress on the word, "for the Order."

It was Sirius's turn to flush. Snape's lip curled in triumph as he turned to Harry.

[...]

"Wait a moment," said Sirius, sitting up straighter in his chair.

Snape turned back to face them, sneering.

"I am in rather a hurry, Black. Unlike you, I do not have unlimited leisure time."

[...]

"I've warned you, Snivellus," said Sirius, his face barely a foot from Snape's, "I don't care if Dumbledore thinks you've reformed, I know better --"

"Oh, but why don't you tell him so?" whispered Snape. "Or are you afraid he might not take very seriously the advice of a man who has been hiding inside his mother's house for six months?"

"Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts, isn't he?"

"Speaking of dogs," said Snape softly, "didyou know that Lucius Malfoy recognised you last time you risked a little jaunt outside? Clever idea, Black, getting yourself seen on a safe station platform ... gave you a cast-iron excuse not to leave your hidey-hole in future, didn't it?"

Sirius raised his wand.

"NO!" Harry yelled, vaulting over the table and trying to get in between them. "Sirius, don't!"

"Are you calling me a coward?" roared Sirius, trying to push Harry out of the way, but Harry would not budge.

"Why yes, I suppose I am," said Snape.

*The emphasis comes from the book itself.

Now, here, Sirius demonstrate the "rashness" of his character. Good, bad, or indifferent, it's a part of his character. I'll admit that.

But, like I was trying to point out, Snape isn't exactly walking the high road and just being picked on. No, he's viciously enjoying the switching of roles and, for lack of a better phrase, kicking a dog when it's already down.

One of Sirius's major frustrations throughout OotP is the fact that he HATES having to hide. Snape doesn't choose just anything to "taunt" Sirius with, but picks the one thing that Sirius already hates himself for.

The other example I was going to bring up was when Dumbledore tells Harry at the end that it was Snape who told the Order and "advised" that Sirius be the one to remain behind to let Dumbledore know.

As demonstrated by Snape's character throughout the series, it's also another safe bet that his "advising" was just as taunting and vicious as it's always been.

In short, this is basically the summation of it all, as far I'm concerned:

Sirius: good and bad qualities = realistic and human character
Snape: good and bad qualities = realistic and human character

And now I'll end this post here, since it's already grown longer than I planned on it being.

~Megan ... who also just came to the realisation that Sirius fans tend to refer to Snape only as "Snape" (or "Snivellus" at times), while Snape fans tend to refer to Sirius only as "Black"

[fg_weasley]

haha. I love megan's argument. Good job, dear.

People are continuing to condemn Snape for refusing to "forgive" Sirius Black, and in the same breath not thinking it all that untoward that Sirius never asked for forgiveness, never felt badly about what he did, and gave every indication, including saying so in so many words, that he'd do it again given the chance.

Honestly, I think you've pretty much said it here. Sirius never asked for forgiveness because he didn't want it. I'm not saying I'm condeming Snape for never forgiving Sirius, but I am agreeing that Snape didn't need to give it. Like you said, there was nothing to forgive. I feel like we've repeated this again and again, but apparently it needs to be said yet another time. Both of them were stubborn; Sirius never would have asked for forgiveness and Snape never would have given it. The thing that really bothers me here is that you say STILL refuse to see that BOTH of them are at fault. You say people continue to see it only as Snape's fault when Sirius is really to blame, but you're doing the same thing with the other side. I mean, it seems to me that you're saying Snape was absolutely innocent and did nothing to provoke Sirius. At times, yes, that's probably true, but not entirely. Sev did provoke, and he did taunt, just as megan showed us. He wasn't simply a victim of Sirius' apparent bullying, as it seems to me the way you show it. Sev could be a git too, not just Sirius. and honestly, in my opinion, I'm glad Sirius never showed remorse for what he did; I don't think he should. That my partially be my extreme dislike for Sev talking, though.

Why Snape is at fault for this, I simply can't understand, although perhaps that's better dealt with in Snape's own thread.

It's *BLACK* who continues to call Snape "Snivellus" twenty years later. It's *BLACK* who continues to make a big deal of how badly Snape was humiliated in school. Snape *can't* forget about it even if he wanted to, because Black brings it up at every available opportunity, including when it is woefully inappropriate to be doing so.

What I don't understand is how you can NOT see it. I won't go into grave detail because Megan has provided sufficent examples, but I will stress again that Sev was no saint. Not in the slightest. Yes, its true that Sirius, probably quite childishly, does everything you mentioned. I'm not denying that fault in him. But, as megan showed, Sev wasn't exactly hesitant to dig at Sirius either. True, probably years of bitterness from his school days prompted this, and one might even say Snape should have been able to get in some of his own revenge. Still, you keep pointing the finger at Sirius sayign that its becuase of him Snape can't forget and all that. But really, he had twelve free years to let the bloody thing go. Obviously, he did not. Its not entirely because of Sirius' taunting that Snape does the same, and you can't deny that he doesn't do the very same. Quite frankly, I think even if Black didn't bring it up, Snape would still have said the things he did. He obviously likes to hold onto old feelings even when they should be let go *coughLilycough* so I don't think its enitely far-fetched to say that Snape would have done some of his own taunting whether Black had brought it up or not.

Also, going along with that, consider this: Sirius peaked in his Hogwarts days, did he not? He and the other Marauders were quite popular, Sirius himself was apparently very handsome and probably did not have much trouble where females were concerned, and we know that they were all very intelligent. Yet then Sirius gets carted off to Azkaban and two of his friends are dead at the hands of a supposed other. Then he's on the run. I think its safe to say his glory days were at Hogwarts, where he was on top and Snape was at teh very bottom. Now the tables have turned, and I honestly am not surprised that Sirius repeatedly brings up the past. He wants to remember life as it once was, when everything was much better and Snape was an easy target. He's living in the past, and considering the circumstances, I'm not surprised, nor do I blame him. It's a slightly common thing, if you think about it. He wants to remind Snape that once, however long ago, Snape was beneath him. He wants to remind him because that's not how it is anymore. I'm not saying that makes it right, I'm just saying that its understandable, to me, at least.

I wanted to say more on that, but the words aren't coming out right now. I really don't see how it could be more laid out, espcially with the quotes from the book that megan provided. I shall be back later.

xox
nikki