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Thread: Albus Dumbledore

  1. #1
    Dumbledore Prince
    Guest

    Albus Dumbledore

    I'm quite sure that Albus doesn't have another thread here; but if he does, feel free to lock this, Jenna.

    I have a specific question. Will it be okay for Dumbledore to use Dark magic after a lot of introspection and debates with himself, or is it so extremely OOC that I should skip the entire scenario in my story?

    I do know that Dumbledore wouldn't use Dark Magic, but in my story he has to defeat Grindelwald, so I *think* a little leeway is okay. Normally, I don't have troubles with his character, but this problem has been bugging me for quite some time ...

    I need it for my story. Thanks!

  2. #2
    remus_rocks
    Guest
    If Dumbledore used dark magic, it would lay heavy on his conscience. I personally do not think he would, as it is what he is fighting against. Although, if it came down to it, he might use it, not to save himself, but to save someone else. So it really depends who and/or what he is fighting for.

  3. #3
    kask
    Guest
    To defeat Grindelwald, yes I think he would. Dumbledore would not be using it as a dark wizard, he would be doing it to save a great number of people. I think that Dumbledore would know the benefits of his actions, and not linger on the fact that he had to use dark magic. I mean, would Harry decide not to defeat Voldemort because he had to use dark magic to do so? No. Voldemort and Grindelwald are evil; they need to be stopped. As long as he isn't killing innocent people in the process, I think Dumbledore would do it.

  4. #4
    cmwinters
    Guest
    I think Legilimency is considered a Dark Art - given that it gives the Legilimens access to the thoughts which the victim may want to keep private, and doesn't really give the victim the opportunity to repel the attack, and he uses that just fine.

    I think it's quite probable that it required Dark Magic to destroy the bit of soul that was encased in the Peverell Ring, and he did that, too . . . and to himself (most likely - it's possible that Snape did it, but more likely Dumbledore did it).

    It also appeared, at least to me, that he begged Snape to kill him - to use Dark Magic against him, because in the long run, Snape doing it was less bad than Draco doing it (which is kind of a screwed up thing that Dumbledore values Draco's soul more than he does Snape's, given that he trusts Snape so much, but . . .) so yes, I can absolutely see Dumbledore using Dark Magic "for the greater good".

  5. #5
    miss padfoot
    Guest
    Hm, I'd say no. The main thing that makes Dumbledore Dumbledore is that he doesn't use Dark Magic. If he's going to use Dark Magic, then it would be like he's sinking down to the level of Grindelwald, which I don't think is the characteristic of Dumbledore.

    'Voldemort has powers I will never have.'

    'Only because you're too -- well -- noble to use them.'
    -Chapter 1, PS/SS, UK Edition.

    From the above exchange, I think it's quite clear that they're talking about Dark Magic and though Dumbledore can do Dark Magic, he chooses not to use them, because he's just too noble for it.

    And just like the can Harry use Dark Magic debate, I think Dumbledore, too, was quite incapable of using Dark Magic. You can't use Dark Magic to eradicate Dark Magic. Only Light expels Dark. So, I think it would be nearly impossible for Dumbledore to use Dark Magic, skilled though he is.

    I think Legilimency is considered a Dark Art - given that it gives the Legilimens access to the thoughts which the victim may want to keep private, and doesn't really give the victim the opportunity to repel the attack, and he uses that just fine.
    I don't know about that. Dark Magic, as I see it, is magic that involves harming/killing of another person. Legilimency, though gives access to the thoughts of the victim, doesn't really harm the person, unless they have something to hide. So, I don't think that is considered a Dark Art.

    And regarding how he destroyed the Ring, we don't really have any information about it, so it's just as possible that he did not use Dark Magic to destroy the Ring. Just like Harry doesn't have to use Dark Magic to destroy the diary in CoS, (the fang is hardly Dark Magic, though it's poisonous) Dumbledore might have found a way to destroy the Ring.

    To defeat Grindelwald, yes I think he would. Dumbledore would not be using it as a dark wizard, he would be doing it to save a great number of people. I think that Dumbledore would know the benefits of his actions, and not linger on the fact that he had to use dark magic.
    Just because he uses Dark Magic for the cause of the people doesn't make it good. The fact remains that he did use Dark Magic even though he did it in the interest of the people. And I'm sure Dumbledore wouldn't want it on his conscience.

    So, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore wouldn't use Dark Magic against anyone.

  6. #6
    AurorKeefy
    Guest
    I recognise that this is something of a departure from the original this or that question, but would Dumbledore ever need to use Dark Magic? Given his immense powers and general fast thinking, it seems unlikely to me he would ever need to. The things Dumbledore can do are powerful enough to keep Voldermorte afraid, even without dark magic.

    Point two, and I know this is repeating what other people have said to a certain extent, what is the Dark Magic in question? As miss padfoot pointed out, Leglimens probably does not count as being a dark art. Just because Voldemorte and Snape are good at it, doesn't mean it is Dark. I imagine both of them are rather good at charms too, but Flitwick isn't a particuarly dark wizard.

    If we're talking Leglimency, then Dumbledore probably would use it, though I think he's insightful enough to not have to. I think that's pretty consistent of most spells of that sort of level/ilk.

    If it's the Death Curse, then it's a slightly different matter. I can't see Dumbledore wanting to use it, but in the heat of battle? In OotP, did he not use the curse against Voldemorte because he was too noble, or simply because he was aware of the prophecy and did not want to give Voldemorte the satisfaction of it not working? On the other hand, what happened to Grindlewald? Seeing as we don't here much about him, is it fair to assume he died? Would using 'Light' magic to kill someone be any better than Dark magic?

    All these questions and no conclusion. I don't know, it's a tricky one. What might be a worthwhile angle in terms of the story, would be to say that yes he used Dark Magic, and in spite of everyones joy at Grindlewalds defeat, it touched a nerve that made him the person he is now. Of course he seemed pretty much the same as he is now in the orphanage in HBP, but then that's something to play with as the story as written.

  7. #7
    cmwinters
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by AurorKeefy
    Point two, and I know this is repeating what other people have said to a certain extent, what is the Dark Magic in question? As miss padfoot pointed out, Leglimens probably does not count as being a dark art. Just because Voldemorte and Snape are good at it, doesn't mean it is Dark. I imagine both of them are rather good at charms too, but Flitwick isn't a particuarly dark wizard.
    I didn't say that Legilimency was a Dark Art because Snape and the Dark Lord use it. I said it was a Dark Art because of what it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by AurorKeefy
    If we're talking Leglimency, then Dumbledore probably would use it, though I think he's insightful enough to not have to. I think that's pretty consistent of most spells of that sort of level/ilk.
    It appears that Dumbledore used Legilimency quite frequently. At least, to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by AurorKeefy
    If it's the Death Curse, then it's a slightly different matter. I can't see Dumbledore wanting to use it, but in the heat of battle? In OotP, did he not use the curse against Voldemorte because he was too noble, or simply because he was aware of the prophecy and did not want to give Voldemorte the satisfaction of it not working?
    I think he didn't use it because he knew it wouldn't work. He knew about the other Horcruxes, he just didn't know how many there were, and there wasn't any POINT in temporarily vanquishing the Dark Lord again, as he'd just come back again later.

  8. #8
    AurorKeefy
    Guest
    I didn't say that Legilimency was a Dark Art because Snape and the Dark Lord use it. I said it was a Dark Art because of what it does.

    Well I don't see the actual art itself as being necessarily Dark, and the only obvious connections to the Dark Arts are that people like Snape and Voldemorte are proficient at it.

    As for Dumbledore using Leglimency, I'm not all that certain that he does. When we talk about Leglimency, there would seem to be two very different areas to it. Firstly, there is the obvious Leglimency Snape uses against Harry in OotP. This Leglimency is an active spell, that quite deliberately attempts to enter the mind of the subject. On the other hand, when Snape says that "it is almost impossible to lie to the Dark Lord", this is doubtless not the same thing. This method of spotting falsehoods would seem to be almost a muggle technique, in that there are no flashes of wands, and the wizard in question need only use a natural interrogation technique to make it work. Voldemorte uses pressure and fear, Snape more often than not seems to use anger, and Dumbledore uses empathy (for all his piercing stares).
    If both of the two forms are part of one larger bracket of Leglimency, then perhaps it is fair to say Dumbledore did use it, and quite often. However if they are seperate, and we regard Dumbledore's ability to understand what is going on as being based on his own non-magical awareness, empathy and attention to detail, then perhaps it is not suitable to call it Leglimency.

    It is interesting that while Occlumency appears to be completely passive, there is a Leglimens spell.

  9. #9
    xcxcharlottexcx
    Guest
    Dumbledore has this reputation of being this great wizard that is all powerful, caring and good therefore I do not think he would use dark magic to harm anyone; please note he never shot a killing curse at Voldemort during their battle in the atrium no matter how many Voldemort did. However the destroying of a horcrux, the ring for example, which harmed no-one apart from Voldemort and himself, as we know of, could involve dark arts due to the fact Dumbledore was in Griffindor and would sacrifice himself first than others (Injured his hand perminatly) so if it came down to it he would use it as a upmost last resort. But I do not think he would use dark magic such as unforgiveable curses due to him being above that sort of thing, notice how in OotP he binded the deatheaters together in the death chamber rather than kill them just to solve the problem of them having to be watched and guarded incase they escape from Askaban. That is just what I think

  10. #10
    GreyLady
    Guest
    I think that Dumbledore would use Dark Magic after much internal agonizing, but in the scenario you're describing, I would suggest thinking of another alternative because you're talking about the past. If Dumbledore did use Dark Magic against Grindelwald, I think that he hid it rather well. OOC well. He would probably be so guilt-ridden that he would tell everyone exactly how he destroyed Grindelwald (we know how he prefers the truth, and he was a Gryffindor) and then he would promptly be slandered by the press. I would think we would hear something about it at the very least as gossip, even if the world has moved on. Something along the lines of, "Dumbledore is brilliant, but what some people have forgotten is that he once used a really evil spell..." And some, like Lucius Malfoy, would definitely use it as ammunition in their condemnation of Dumbledore. Of course, it still makes sense for us to have just never to have heard about this because we never glimpse some parts of the "potterverse," but I tend to think that this just doesn't fit...feel free to disagree. If you end up having DD use Dark Magic anyway, I would just make sure that you get the point across that "this will lay heavily on his soul all of his life." Because it would, when you consider how guilty he felt after Sirius died as a result of him withholding the prophecy from Harry. Think of how much more serious Dark Magic is...

    Note: sorry, this was my first serious post. I'm attempting to be helpful...I don't think it's working.

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