Bartemius Crouch, Jr.

After rereading the Pensieve scene of the sentencing, I have to say that I really think she knew he was guilty. They had already had the trial and this was only the sentencing. Crouch, Sr. states that they had already heard the evidence against them and they had been found guilty. The way Mrs. Crouch reacts just doesn't strike me as someone who believes an injustice is being done to her child. If she believed he had been falsely convicted, I think she would have been very angry with her husband. At the very least, the fact that she is there, sitting beside her husband who is the one passing down the sentence on their child, indicates to me that she knows Barty Jr is guilty. Otherwise, I think she would have rejected everything about the sentencing, including her husband. But sitting there, rocking back and forth whimpering is more the behavior of someone who realizes the situation is hopeless. I really think she knew he was guilty.

That being said, even if I did think she thought he was innocent, I don't know if I would change my opinion on her Slytherin traits. I might lean a little more towards Gryffindor, because then things would be a little more on the chivalrous side, (defending the innocent), but I would still see the Slytherin in her, too. Her actions were still more devious and calculating than bold and daring. I just see a Gryffindor standing up and shouting out their belief in the innocence, sort of "Don't worry, Son, I'll save you. I'll prove you are innocent!" rather than sitting by while he was dragged off and then sneaking in and breaking him out only to have him hidden away, imprisoned in their own home all those years. :(

So my money is still on her being a Slytherin.

You know, I think the Crouch side story is one of the saddest, most heartbreaking parts of the series. :(

Oh, good, a Barty Jr. thread! *claps hands happily*

Now, I see you've already discussed his age somewhat...but as we don't have an exact date, I'd like to put something forth. I need him on the slightly younger side for a fic I'm writing--which is set in Harry's seventh year. My reasoning was this: He is in his "late teens" in the Pensieve scene. I'm putting this down as eighteen, though it could be nineteen just as well (18 works better for my story). It was "shortly after" Voldemort's downfall, which means 1980-1981. I'm thinking early 1981. That would place him about 16-17 years older than Harry. Which means he would be around 33 in Harry's seventh year. But then I start to confuse myself when thinking about Hermione, born 1979, who's really the main character besides Barty. So what are your most definite thoughts on his age? Does 33 seem realistic?

I agree that he would be in Slytherin. He seems to be very cunning and ambitious--like when he wanted to be Voldy's favorite--as well as passionate. He is so devoted to his cause that he hates his fellow Death Eaters for not being as loyal as they should. For this, I don't think that he would have been much in the clique-y Slyth group when he was in school...he seems to be too aloof.

We have seen different sides of him in the books. In the Pensieve trial, he's begging, frail, and frightened. He's confident, proud, and somewhat mad in the end of Book 4. Which is the real him? Or is is somewhere in between? The movie Barty seems to have corrupted my thoughts somewhat, I keep imagining the flickering tongue. :rolleyes:

The books said he had straw-colored hair and a freckled face. Do we know his eye color? Was he handsome? His family history is interesting--I have to wonder what his relationship with his father was when he was younger, and when he heard of the Death Eaters.

Of course, now I seem to be veering off into asking pointless questions that no one knows the answer to. But does anybody know what compelled him to join the DEs? How did he learn to hate the "un-pure"?

Forgive the rambling...I'm trying to go as deeply into his character as possible, since I writing him OOC in this fic would be terrible. :eek:
~Analisa

I personally think that he would have graduated shortly before Snape started teaching.
Snape started by all accounts in 1981 (or at least according to Mugglenet encyclopedia). This means that he might have come for the Spring term or started in September term.
Voldemort tried to kill Harry on October 31, 1981.
Barty and the Lestranges attack on the Longbottom happened in 1981 or 1982.
I personally think that Barty must have been serving Voldemort for longer than five months to have been as loyal as he was to Voldemort. If he graduate while Snape was teaching, the means that Sanpe would have started teaching in the middle of a year and Barty would have served Voldemort for a very short period of time (I think it is highly doubtful that Voldemort would have a Death Eater who was still at school).
I think that he must have been out of school for a year before Voldemort fell. But, this is just personal opinion.

I think that Mrs. Crouch was in Slytherin, as were Crouch Sr. and Jr. Mrs. Crouch knew that she was dieing at the time and Barty makes a point of that. She knew that she didn't have much time left when she traded places with her son, Slytherins can also have maternal instinct (Narcissa is living proof of that). It took cunning to switch places, not bravery. Bravey would mean that she had something to risk, which she knew that she didn't. She wasn't risking anything. She knew that she was dead already. Also, it shows a great deal of manipulation that she was able to convince her husband to do this. In addition, the Dementors must not have had much of an effect on her. Polyjuice Potion requires that the drinker take it every hour on the hour and she remembered to do this until the very hour of her death. Sirius said that shortly afterwards, Barty died. This implies that there were at least a few days of the switch and the death.
Crouch Sr. I think that he was a Slytherin simply because of his ambition. He was also willing to smuggle his son out, which again shows cunning but not bravery (he had already fallen from grace at that point since his son's crimes had already been discovered). He kept his son in captivity for all those years.
Crouch Jr. I think was a Slytherin, mostly because he was a Death Eater. Granted, not all Death Eaters were Slytherins, but most of them were. He also mentions being rewarded beyond all other a great deal and he says, "it took every ounce of cunning I possessed."

Just this girl's opinion.

Personally, I don't think she was quite as convinced of her sons innocence as has been previously stated. I certainly agree that it is natural for a mother to think the best of her child, and I do not doubt that this occurred to some degree. Yet the manner in which Mrs Crouch behaves during her sons trial makes me think that perhaps she was very much aware of his guilt. I, from the first time I read GoF, did not picture Mrs Crouch as being able to even look at her son (people don't generally rock with their head up ;)). I think the tears are less for the fact that her son is going to Azkaban, and more because she has allowed, even caused, her son to go so astray. In addition, I think we universally suspect that Mrs Crouch was extremely intelligent, and in the cold light of day would have been able to make the connection.
Nonetheless, as I said earlier, I do believe that she managed to convince herself of her sons innocence to a certain degree. I don't think she could ever tell herself that he didn't participate, but she might have pictured him as a bystander, or being co-erced into doing what he did. Of course she would also know the reality, but would be able to push this to the back of her mind somewhat....

[tangent]Which reminds me of that absolutely brilliant line in OotP, "Unfortunately the back of his mind was no longer the safe place it had once been."[paraphrased] Fantastic! But I digress...[/tangent]

...allowing her to believe her son was an innocent person, though guilty of the crime in question.

I agree with Moony that Mrs Crouch was a Slytherin, yet I would have actually placed Mr Crouch in Gryffindor. Barty doesn't come across as the sly, cunning weaver of webs that Severus or any of the other Slytherins we have met does. To me, he comes across as a powerhouse of a wizard, Fierce, apparently fearless and emotionless, and very very powerful. He is someone who will unashamedly tackle a problem head on, by whatever is the clearest and shortest path. Even the Dark Lord doesn't show that sort of, well, bravery. He may be Ambitious, but so are many Gryffindors (Ron and Hermione I would suggest, and obviously Percy). It's also worth noting that while much is made of the fact that he would do anything for his career, this is largely based upon the fact he sent his son to Azkaban to "protect" his career. In reality, he might well have done it to protect people. Eventually it is his love for his son and wife (place that in the order of your choice) that causes him to make that rather ill-fated decision to free his son. I don't get the impression he was particularly for the idea initially, and would have required some convincing. That doesn't sound very Slytherin to me.

Well, I actually think that BCJr might have been in Ravenclaw or Gryffindor. This is because I don't think he started out being an evil, sycotic maniac. And we all know that he is very clever, and to a certain extent, brave. I think his problem was his dad didn't love him, and probably was mean to him and put him down all the time, and his mum was probably over-indulgent towards him. Bad combination. We don't know why he turned evil. Maybe it was because of he was sick of the good side...he's quite an intreaging character, don't you think?:rolleyes:

I have to say I agree. He doesn't strike me as having started out a pure slytherin or an evil maniac. I think his attitudes in GoF are most likely due to the fact that between azkaban and the imperius curse he had spent the last thirteen years imprisoned and, in a way, tortured. I don't really see him as close to either of his parents but I think he'd blame them for that. I also don't honestly think he played a major part in what happened to the Longbottoms - he was probably a lookout and perhaps helped a little (maybe in breaking their security or even some light torture) but his fear of the consequences and his denial of any loyalty to the Death Eaters shows he obviously wasn't that faithful to them. The fact that Bellatrix declared that the Dark Lord will praise them while Barty made terrified denials implies that he wasn't really particularly devoted of close to the Dark Lord. His attitude towards traitors probably came after he suffered as a convicted Death Eater.

I agree that Barty Crouch Jr was in Slytherin. Angel of Lily and Phoebe bring up the point that he didn't start out as an evil maniac. I agree with this, however, most Slytherins aren't evil maniacs, that's just what we have learned to assume form the examples of Voldie-poo and the Malfoys. Saying that, I don't even think the Malfoys were evil maniacs either. I see Barty Jr as a Slytherin because of his cunning and ambition. He had 12 OWLS and had impersonated moody ECT. ECT. I also feel that the established dates are correct.
Barty Crouch I also see as a Slytherin because of the lack of emotion he seems to have most of the time. The people arguing for him to be put in Gryffindor cite the fact that he doesn't use cunning but barrels through the job. However, what about during the trial, when Crouch displayed little, if no emotion? I feel that if Crouch was a Gryffindor we would have seen a tidbit of emotion there at least. Also, a Gryffindor, if Crouch Jr really was guilty, wouldn't have let him out, as to provide for the common good.
Mrs. Crouch is more difficult though. I actually see her as a Hufflepuff. I feel she had conflicted emotions over whether her son was guilty or not, let her emotions overpower her and took her son's place. A Gryffindor would have done something more rash, such as yelling out at the trial, or openly breaking in. I don't see her as a Slytherin, simply because of how much emotion she showed in the trial. I see Slytherins as seeing emotion as a weakness and usually trying to hide it (emotion) to themselves. Mrs. Crouch isn't in Ravenclaw because a ravenclaw would have thought it through and found that letting barty out into the world would have been too much of a danger.

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I just think it would be hard to convince people that she was a Slytherin.

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Well, she didn't get him out of prison for 13-14 odd years. If she really thought he was innocent, maybe she would have tried sooner. The fact is, she was dying when this happened. I don't believe she got magically smarter right around the time she was going to die. I believe she wanted to either continue her family or save the son she loved against all rational thinking. Also, if she did believe he was guilty, I don't think she necessarily blamed him for everything. I think maybe she knew he did it, but she mostly blamed the Lestranges. However, I believe she realized he was, on some level, guilty, and his life was probably not worth her life. However, when he was dying, she might have realized she wanted to help her only child. It's selfish and loving, so that's what makes it difficult. However, I don't feel this goes against cannon Slytherin portrayals. Waiting a long period of time before the moment breaks someone into becoming emotional and showing their true feelings for a beloved person . . . I see many examples.

At the time we meet him in GoF, I imagine him as being 28,29. I think he would've joined Voldemort at a young age, like 16 or 17.
His house.....he was:
clever--ravenclaw
cunning--slytherin
quck witted--ravenclaw
shrewd--slytherin
Equal. I really don't know, but I'm gonna say Ravenclaw.
His dad would've disowned if he'd been a Slytherin. Earlier than he did.

His dad---Ravenclaw
His mum---Hufflepuff

HIH!

Wasn't Narcissa Malfoy a Slytherin? And yet look what she did for the love of her son? Motherhood just kicks in - in a cold heart there is warmth for a child. In a cowardly temperament there is the instinct to jump in front of a bus to save your offspring. Just try to imagine the pain Mrs. Crouch went through while her son was sentenced to rot in the most foul prison known to mankind. Her ONLY son. Think how empty her life was without her child during the years he was in prison.
It makes no difference whether she knew he was guilty or mistakenly thought he was innocent, a mother loves her child regardless of what the child has done to hurt her.

I'm not saying she WAS Slytherin, but I don't think she was a Gryffindor, because it was Motherly instinct to do what she did. I tend to think she was in Ravenclaw. But you would have to see how she treated people besides her own family to learn what she really was.

(P.S. If she was Slytherin, however, perhaps she would be proud of her son for doing the things he did? Only saying.)

As for Barty Jr., he could have been in Ravenclaw or Slytherin. Perhaps he was in Ravenclaw but was never accepted in his own house and turned to Slytherin friends who accepted him, consequently being influenced by the dark magic and pureblood mania that surrounded him? Interesting plot bunny.