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Do you think wizards have the equivalent to lawyers? Or a defense attorney? I'm thinking a person that's in the Wizengamot could possibly count as a lawyer. Do you think they would have interns that are training to become professionals in the department of magical law enforcement?
That's a really good question.
I think that they would have to have some form of a lawyer. I don't think that it wouldn't be fair in any modern society to not have a defense attorney in a court case, and surely someone would have thought of that in the wizarding world. The only court case that we see in the books is Harry's underage magic in the fifth book. There, Dumbledore was his main defense. I would say that, if no one directly comes to defend the person, then a "lawyer" from the Ministry would be selected to defend them. Nice topic. :)
Claire
I am pretty sure there was a thread on this subject previously. Hmm. This one, maybe.
Anyway, as mentioned, the only "lawyer" Harry got was Dumbledore speaking as an advocate, and that only because Dumbledore managed to show up when they didn't expect him to.
Given that Hagrid and Sirius, among others, were thrown in Azkaban without a trial, it doesn't seem that the wizarding world has much in the way of due process. Of course Rowling said that the Ministry was corrupt even before Voldemort took over, so possibly in the post-Voldemort world, they do reform the laws and have a need for lawyers.
Inverarity is correct in saying that the court/lawyer system wasn't entirely fair. So, I think that there would be lawyers that did appear in some cases, but that the trial system was not very specific, if that makes sense.
Well, it could also have been possible that Harry never had representation because Fudge tried to get his trial in under the table. Also, as a kid, Harry may not have been very informed of his rights and didn't know whether or not he had the right to a lawyer or any other kind of legal representation. Add in a corrupt Ministry, the whole thing was a shame.
It may indeed be possible there are lawyers, but they may not be thought of in the same offical sense that we see lawyers. Instead, there may be people who spend they're lives studying the law of Magical courts and are then hired as advocates. I'm not a hundred percent sure that the system is the same as ours, though. They really don't seem to have judges or juries in their court system.
Yeah I think that in Harry's time before the battle there wasn't much to the judicial system, at least not the way we have it. I think that people who have money (like the Malfoys) would be able to get a fairer trial, or at least an expedited one.Quote:
Of course Rowling said that the Ministry was corrupt even before Voldemort took over, so possibly in the post-Voldemort world, they do reform the laws and have a need for lawyers.
But I agree, I think that in the post-voldemort world, they would reform the laws. Harry especially would feel the need for reformed laws, as he was tried unfairly by the Wizenagamot.
--Bella
Well, when Sirius in GoF tells the Trio how he was thrown in prison without a trial they are shocked--such practice is clearly out of the norm. Sirius was also handled this way during wartime-- many "civilized" countries have the practice of suspending certain liberties during times of crisis, such as war. In America during the Civil War President Lincoln, often regarded as the greatest president (he's certainly my favorite) suspended, among other things, habeus corpus, which is basically what happened to Sirius. It may not be fair but it's not some barbaric practice exclusive to the Ministry (and they were reticent to use it-- only power-crazy Crouch went that far), and sometimes it's necessary to win the war. As to Hagrid, what I've always seen as happening is Fudge wants to look as if he's solving the problem, so he procures a warrant for arrest, which wouldn't be so hard as Hagrid has previously been convicted during a string of similar attacks. Perhaps Hagrid did have a small trial and it was concluded that until further information came to light he would be contained in Azkaban, lest he be dangerous. Or maybe he was held without trial because he was deemed potentially dangerous-- what judge wants to deliver sentence when the defendant could paralyze them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Inverarity
As far as lawyers, I think the Wizarding world definitely has them, and the fact that Harry did not for his hearing is because either Harry was not aware of his rights and Fudge wasn't in the mood to enlighten him, or else because Dumbledore was orchestrating from on high and planned to speak in his defense, making the arrangement for a lawyer unnecessary.
Personally, I don't imagine the wizarding world has lawyers in the same way that the muggle world has them. Certainly I don't imagine there exists a professional body of lawyers, whose sole occupation is to represent clients in court. Given the the small population of the wizarding world, and the fact that even in war times the Wizengamot seems to be made up of part-time members with other jobs as their mainstay (Dumbledore, Fudge, arguably Madam Bones, Umbridge, etc), and the fact that most trials seem to be VERY short, law doesn't seem like something that people could make a living from.
In fact, given that in the many trials we have witnessed in the HP books all but one of the clients have represented themselves (and Dumbledore was surely acting as an Advocate for underage Harry - unless you believe Albus simply moonlights as a headmaster when he has no cases), it is difficult to find an example of anything remotely suggesting lawyers' existance.
Now, the next question is does this change after Deathly Hallows? I'm inclined to say no. While there might well have been changes in wizarding legislation (largely down to Kingsley, Hermione and the influence of the late Albus), the fact that relations would improve with muggles does not necessarily suggest that the legal system (and laws generally) would seek to imitate the muggle version. Even amongst the firmly muggle supporting wizards, there is a great deal of superiority. Only Mr Weasley seems to regard Muggles as being remotely close to on a par with wizards, and he, frankly, is viewed as something of a weirdo by his own family because of it. Although there was a degree of muggle hunting involved by the Dark Lord's supporters, this was seen as frivolous by his side and cruel by the Order of the Phoenix. Remember the campsite manager? The war was basically over what constituted a wizard, in terms of blood, not about equality and openness between wizards and muggles. I don't see them emulating the system. This is a legal system of veritaserum, after all.
Besides which, following on from the second war, there is even less need for lawyers. Given that the criminal network of the Death Eaters has been smashed, you've removed most of the Dark Wizards who would require prosecuting anyway. The already small caseload of trials drops to the extent where it is difficult to imagine one wizarding lawyer making a full-time job from it, much less several. On the other side of this, I don't imagine that Kingsley would be in favour of putting bureaucracy in place over legal matters, when he could simply ensure that the "right" people were monitoring it "fairly".
And just to think, this is the justice system that exists in a wealthy, modern country, like the U.K. How bad must this justice systems and the prisons be in less developed countries?
This is a new question, what must the justice systems be like in Central America, and the Middle East, and Africa?
I agree that there probably isn't much in the way of anything 'full time' about being a lawyer in the wizarding world. However, Dumbledore is on the Wizengamot, and he's allowed to defend Harry, so does that make him a 'lawyer' in the wizarding world? I would imagine that, to be on the Wizengamot, you must have some type of legal training. I originally think that the Wizengamot was made up of only pureblood wizards, but at some point, this changed, and there might be some type of legal training one must do to get into the Wizengamot.Quote:
Given the the small population of the wizarding world, and the fact that even in war times the Wizengamot seems to be made up of part-time members with other jobs as their mainstay (Dumbledore, Fudge, arguably Madam Bones, Umbridge, etc), and the fact that most trials seem to be VERY short, law doesn't seem like something that people could make a living from.
On another note, I was curious about lawyers because I had Hermione specifically in mind. If there is such a thing as lawyers or the equivalent in the wizarding world, I can see her doing that type of job.
I agree, and this makes me think that we've seen a select set of trials in the HP books. I think, actually, the best and possibly most accurate trial scenes come in GoF with the pensive, and even then, the wizarding world was working under a 'war tribual' legal system. Harry's trial was very biased, and the DH trials were also done under an extremely corrupt court of law. I think, though, after DH, you probably wouldn't see the no trial situation.Quote:
Well, when Sirius in GoF tells the Trio how he was thrown in prison without a trial they are shocked--such practice is clearly out of the norm.
I'm inclined to disagree with this statement. There were plenty of people around who supported Voldemort and didn't die in DH. I imagine some trials, and maybe a demand for some re-trails, would happen. I also see people who supported Voldemort, but had not 'come out' as Death Eaters being put on trial. I imagine that the worst offenders in the government under Voldemort might get hearings. Jo makes the comparison of the Ministry under Voldemort to Nazi Germany, so the trials afterwards might be like a type of Nuremberg.Quote:
Given that the criminal network of the Death Eaters has been smashed, you've removed most of the Dark Wizards who would require prosecuting anyway.