*note: DH spoilers abound. Duh*
Well, it's taken a while for me to formulate an answer, but I'm not going to reply about my accusations about Harry and Sirius, suffice to say that I was probably wrong. I have not read the books in a very long time, so I plan to re-read them and decide. This, however, takes a large chunk out of my reply. In any case, I'm most likely wrong.
Well, again, the only indication of Lily and Sirius' friendship was the DH letter, which was very, very cordial, so I assume they could have been good friends. She adresses the letter to him like Hermione would, with the word Love at the end, so they were probably *good* friends. The plot bunnies abound.
Yes, Lily probably disliked/resented James on a level, but we don't know anything about her relationship with Sirius or what she really thought. Sirius obviously didn't like her friend, but as Lily gets older, it doesn't even seem like she likes her best friend. And if Lily and Sirius did have something, it would have been later, after her friendship with her friend is over.
The issue about Lily not confronting Sirius can be a double edged sword - on one hand, it could say that she didn't want to say anything to him, but on the other hand, it could indicate that she just didn't give a niffler. Either way, it can be *almost* deduced that they were not friends in their fifth year. Of course, considering the Harry/Ginny ship, it's very possible to become romantically involved with someone you haven't known forever.
Again, a double edged sword. Sirius may have, at one point, become angry enough with James as to consider romantic involvement with Lily, but all signs point to him being *so* *insanely* loyal to James that even *if* Lily tried to make a move on him, he would quickly reject it. He *definitely* wouldn't tell James, though. Also, I've always imagined Remus as the one to be Lily's friend, but I guess it would be possible for Lily to have been friends with Sirius. I can imagine James using this to his advantage.
Lily may have even liked Sirius to make James angry. I'm sure if Lily was hanging out with his best friend, he wouldn't have been too happy. I just don't think that, if Lily was really as fair as she seemed, she'd completely hate Sirius for being friends with James, especially if she didn't hate James.
(This is my new favorite word.)
If Sirius was as much of an "ignorant toe-rag" as James, she would definitely not wanted to have been friends with him. Or maybe she would have. The issue is simply that we haven't seen enough of the MWPP era. Which, I'll be the first to admit, is severely annoying. *nod*
There is always the possibility that she isn't as fair as she actually seems, right? I mean, Snape makes friends with her, endures Slytherin ridicule for being friends with her, does everything possible to impress her, yet as soon as he gets mildly involved with the Dark Arts and accidentally calls her a "Mudblood" she cuts off their friendship.
I think that if Lily was really so fair, and not just targeting James, she would have blamed both of them. The only reason she targeted James was because she didn't like him, or wanted to appear that way.
I do agree that he was sort of a background character, but if she really despised Sirius (more than James), she'd have brought him into the scene, no matter what.
Here was my mindset when I wrote this: I had just realized that I was a *lot* like Sirius. Smart, able to spout off bytes of personal wisdom yet not apply them to his life, and too quick to act. And, being a teen, I'm going through a large bout of self-loathing, which I find very normal for the average teen and I'm almost out of. In any case, my feelings for Sirius were not my actual opinion of him but what I see as problems with myself. Therefore, I'm going to re-read the series before commenting. In any case, you're right - I *was* singling Harry and Sirius out. Not because I was right about them, but because I see them as the best reflections of myself.
I don't agree with this at all. I don't think it's a problem in JKR's writing, if anything, it'd be the character. In this, you mention Harry and Sirius. That's only two characters... so I think, if they really were like this, it'd be intentional. If it were JKR's writing, then every character would be like this, which we see, is not the case.
I feel like you are singling Harry and Sirius out. And I don't know what you mean by inferior. I think with Sirius, you are thinking of Kreacher. Yes, Sirius was not kind to Kreacher, but even Dumbledore says that it's because Kreacher represented the place that Sirius hated, the family that never accepted him. As for inferior, it makes me think intelligence, and I do not think for a moment Sirius thought Snape less able than him. We've seen Sirius hate people who generally deserved to be hated. But he never hated anyone unjustifiably -- Lord Voldemort, Peter, Kreacher, Death Eaters, Snape. With Snape, we don't know the other side of the story. We see them picking on Snape, but I doubt Snape was completely innocent.
With Harry, I think you're very wrong. Harry considers those he hates people. Why do you think he saved Peter's life? Saved Draco's life? He and Draco were never friends, but I don't think Harry once considered Draco inferior or less human than him. Peter was the reason Harry didn't have parents! But he saved his life! Harry even felt sympathy for Voldemort! He thinks of people more than many others in the series, even people he hates.
I'm a Snape-lover, oddly, so of course I'm a bit prejudiced. Sorry, I'll try to put that aside. In any case, I know Snape wasn't an amazing guy. He had a tiny sadistic streak in him, loved to mentally torture those he hated and occasionally physically harm them, as seen in Snape's Worst Memory (I think the fact that he hurt James was what severed his and Lily's relationship). However, I'll quote JKR:
Plus what Sirius says about Snape was true... We have no reason to believe that Snape was this amazing guy. Even Jo says that he wasn't great. He hated Harry for no reason. Sirius disliked him, but I still think what he said was true. He was nice to one person, which doesn't mean he was good to anyone else. He did become a Death Eater! We can't ignore other things about him.
So, I agree, Snape isn't this amazingly good guy (an amazing character, yes). However, he isn't PUR EBUL, as Sirius depicts him as. Again, he sheltered Harry, basically saved his life (without his appeal for Lily's life Harry would be six feet under), and acted as a spy for Dumbledore, a man who basically controlled him. So, no, Sevvy isn't amazingly good, but he's not the pure evil Sirius thinks he is. Of course, Snape hasn't been anything to Sirius *but* evil, so I suppose that old Padfoot has some reason to hate Snape.
Similarly, Sirius claims that nobody is wholly good or wholly evil, and yet the way he acts towards Snape suggests that he cannot conceive of any latent good qualities there.
Again, teenage self questioning. Ignore and proceed. =]
If Lily had "logical intelligence" and Sirius didn't, that doesn't mean much. We've seen people (in the series) with what you call "logical intelligence" fall for others who you say don't.
And we don't know enough about Lily to deduct if she had logical intelligence or not. We know that she was good in Potions? So what? Harry is good at DADA; it doesn't mean he has logical intelligence (as you say he doesn't).
We know that Sirius could be rash, but we only have seen him act rash when Snape almost got killed. But we also know that Snape hated Sirius as Sirius hated Snape, and that Snape was trying to find out about Remus. Of course Sirius wouldn't care about Snape (just as Snape doesn't care that Sirius was innocent in PoA, he still wanted to send him to the Dementors).
After that, we only see him after being locked up for thirteen years. He never thought he was going to get out, so why not take risks after that? After being locked up for so long, what's the point of not living while you can?
Also, a lot of the time it was for Harry, the only person he had left.
I always imagined Lily as someone who hated idiotic bravery as much as cowardliness. I'm not sure, though.
You said that he had nothing Lily would admire. I think that the courage to stand out from your whole family is something she would admire.
As we've seen, people can change from year one to year five. In year one, Draco's a bastard, but a common garden-variety bastard at that. At year five he's going to become a Death Eater. At year one, Regulus Black was some kid intoxicated with pureblood mania. By year five, he was a Death Eater. Harry, on his first year, was a scrawny child with no sense of who he was and hopeless optimism. By year five he was a very powerful teen who could see into the mind of the darkest wizard alive. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that, while James wasn't infested with pureblood mania, he could have thought that purebloods were more powerful that muggleborns - or maybe not. I don't know. It's simply speculation.
Since he completely freaks out when Snape calls Lily a Mudblood, we can assume that there wasn't much prejudice. Honestly, if he was really prejudice, he wouldn't have married a Muggleborn, no matter what.
Amazing post, Kask. I love this discussion. *nod*