Pairing - Lily/Sirius

*note: DH spoilers. Duh*

Inspired by a true Discussion - RULES! thread

Well, I got this idea from the rules thread under the OC forum, and I sincerely hope that this is in the right spot...

In short, what are the possibilities of Sirius/Lily? I know that some people find the ship possible, and some find it impossible (of course), though, like Remus/Lily, it's generally un-canon.

I don't think that it is possible simply because of Lily's personality. She values, among other things, sensitivity and kindness, which is why she refused to even consider dating James until she was 18. Sirius, as we have seen, lacks all forms of sensitivity everywhere. He doesn't care if he hurts/offends people that he hates, simply because I don't think Sirius sees those he hates as equals.

Besides that, I don't see any qualities in Sirius that Lily would admire. He is not *very* intelligent (he was helped along his Animagus journey, I'm sure, by James and Remus), he isn't sensetive or caring, he comes off as shallow most of the time, and doesn't think through his choices logically. Harry is almost like Sirius in that way, as he doesn't think through the consequences of his actions before he acts.

However, my point isn't so much to disprove this ship as it is to wonder how it would work. I only have a few points...

- Sirius would need to have a serious attitude change. I think that the only way this could be pulled off is if he changed enough *for* Lily, that when she died he went back to being old Sirius. I have yet to find a S/L fic on MNFF, but I've heard them discussed before.

- Lily would need to have an attitude change, also. I've always imagined Lily, out of all the Marauders, despising Sirius the most. The problem is that we don't know when this happened, whether it was after Lily and James became friends or after they got married.

- Sirius would probably be attracted to Lily before she was attracted to him. I've seen guys change for girls plenty of times, and, not to stereotype, but I've seen that the opposite isn't as common. Guys seem, to me, to be more motivated to change for a girl than girls seem to be willing to change for guys (clothes aside).

Anyway, if anyone has a point against my issues or has another idea, feel free to post. *grin*

Emery

Beth: 5 points off for spoilers in an unmarked thread.

THERE ARE SPOILERS IN THIS POST!!


Although I am a serious Lily/James, Lily/Severus shipper, I have read Lily/Sirius fics that I enjoyed very much. I think that their relationship could work. Sirius was very like James, and she ended up falling for James. I think that Lily could have easily fallen for Sirius if she fell for James.

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Originally Posted by Pafoo

I don't think that it is possible simply because of Lily's personality. She values, among other things, sensitivity and kindness, which is why she refused to even consider dating James until she was 18. Sirius, as we have seen, lacks all forms of sensitivity everywhere. He doesn't care if he hurts/offends people that he hates, simply because I don't think Sirius sees those he hates as equals.

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I disagree here. First of all, we don't know that much about Lily's personality. We knew that she acted like she hated James because he picked on other people. But we don't really know that she hated him. I'm pretty sure Jo said that Lily never really hated James. When you like someone, you act like you don't; it's the rule of being fifteen.

If Lily was really so righteous, how come she didn't yell at Sirius in 'Snape's Worst Memory'? Sirius was right there, and Lily didn't say a word to him, she just yelled at James. I really don't think that Lily was a good two-shoes, and I think she didn't consider dating James until he was seventeen because she was too proud to give in, even though she liked him.

Now for sensitivity... Sirius doesn't lack it! You say that he doesn't care about hurting people he hates...of course not. You aren't going to be too sensitive to those who join the Dark Lord and eventually kill your best friend. The only example of this I can think of is him hurting Snape when he was young, which was with James. And then when he wanted to kill Peter with Remus. That didn't lack sensitivity, that showed how much he cared for James. We know he wouldn't have ever betrayed him, and even went to Azkaban for thirteen years for Peter's crime. How forgiving would you be? We see how much Sirius cares for Harry, for James, for Lily. He does everything he can to protect Harry.

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Besides that, I don't see any qualities in Sirius that Lily would admire. He is not *very* intelligent (he was helped along his Animagus journey, I'm sure, by James and Remus), he isn't sensetive or caring, he comes off as shallow most of the time, and doesn't think through his choices logically. Harry is almost like Sirius in that way, as he doesn't think through the consequences of his actions before he acts.

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Sirius, not intelligent? Remus says that Sirius and James were the two brightest students at Hogwarts. Sirius is very intelligent! I don't see Remus helping them too much, how would he? He wasn't doing it. It was Sirius and James who helped Peter.

Then there is Sirius. Sirius was brave enough to stand up for what he believed in. Even though his family was obsessed with blood and he was disowned for doing it, Sirius never cared about blood. He was able to look past that and realize it was wrong. Yes, James was the same way, he never judged based on blood, but we get the impression that was his family's doing. His father was in Gryffindor, and he was raised that way. Sirius was not. He was strong enough to break away from that mindset and become his own person.

I think Lily would have found that very admirable.

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- Lily would need to have an attitude change, also. I've always imagined Lily, out of all the Marauders, despising Sirius the most. The problem is that we don't know when this happened, whether it was after Lily and James became friends or after they got married.

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I don't think that. I think she hated James the most for a long time. She yelled at James, not Sirius. I can see Lily being amused by Sirius, but not James, because she really liked him. I think Lily thought them funny, just didn't want James to know.

Beth: 5 points for a very good response. However, as spoilers aren't allowed in threads not marked with DH spoilers, I'll have to take the 5 back.

*ponder* Nice post, Kask.

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I disagree here. First of all, we don't know that much about Lily's personality. We knew that she acted like she hated James because he picked on other people. But we don't really know that she hated him. James was picking on Snape, Lily's friend, so of course she would be defensive. Other than that, I'm pretty sure Jo said that Lily never really hated James. When you like someone, you act like you don't; it's the rule of being fifteen.

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Yes, but we also know that it wasn't as if James and Lily were friends since the beginning. She was predjudiced against him from the very beginning due to James' teasing of her best friend. Now, I know that she never really hated him, but when I say hated, I mean resented. She probably resented James because of Severus.

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If Lily was really so righteous, how come she didn't yell at Sirius in 'Snape's Worst Memory'? Sirius was right there, and Lily didn't say a word to him, she just yelled at James. I really don't think that Lily was a good two-shoes, and I think she didn't consider dating James until he was seventeen because she was too proud to give in, even though she liked him.

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Sirius was pretty much a background character. He was antagonizing, but he didn't instigate or begin it. James did. Therefore, he takes the blame. I imagine that Sirius was, on one hand, doing it because he wanted to do what James did, and on the other, he wanted to maintain reasonable doubt.

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Now for sensitivity... Sirius doesn't lack it! You say that he doesn't care about hurting people he hates...of course not. You aren't going to be too sensitive to those who join the Dark Lord and eventually kill your best friend. The only example of this I can think of is him hurting Snape when he was young, which was with James. And then when he wanted to kill Peter with Remus. That didn't lack sensitivity, that showed how much he cared for James. We know he wouldn't have ever betrayed him, and even went to Azkaban for thirteen years for Peter's crime. How forgiving would you be? We see how much Sirius cares for Harry, for James, for Lily. He does everything he can to protect Harry.

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This is what I consider a problem with JKR's writing. Never in the series does someone (Harry/Sirius) stop and think, "Hey, the people I hate are, wow, people too." What I'm saying is that Sirius barely even considers that the people he hates have *feelings* or *emotions*. And I'm not saying that Sirius isn't forgiving - he simply considers, like Harry, those he hate to be *inferior*, not equal. I don't quite remember saying anything about his capacity to forgive...

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Sirius, not intelligent? Remus says that Sirius and James were the two brightest students at Hogwarts. Sirius is very intelligent! I don't see Remus helping them too much, how would he? He wasn't doing it. It was Sirius and James who helped Peter.

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If you're relating something about an old, currently dead friend to someone else, of course you're going to sugarcoat it. It's impossible to depend on Lupin's information about Sirius - we might as well believe everything Sirius says about Snape. I'm simply going off what has been shown in the books, and by *intelligent* I do not mean learning ability. I mean *using* that ability to reason. Snape/Lily/Hermione/Dumbledore have it. Sirius/Harry/Ron don't.

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And look at Lily, she was friends with Snape. Snape. He's one-hundred times less caring than Sirius. Snape was the insensitive, uncaring one. He was obsessed with the Dark Arts , not nice to anyone (except Lily), and mean. Sirius did anything he could for Harry. He loved his friends, and had a rough life. Yes, he thought before he acted, but we don't know James wasn't the same.

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Yes, but two things: first, she had been friends with him since she was 7, so she felt *some* attatchment to him on a friend level. I've noticed that it's a lot easier to tolerate a quality from your friend then from someone who isn't. And, again, I never said that James was like Sirius or that Sirius didn't care for Harry. All I was saying is that, as there have been mentions of Lily's logical intelligence being on Hermione's level, and Sirius, from what we have seen of him (which is really all we can go by, as everyone who talks about him is prejudiced in some manner), he doesn't have it.

From my experience, if someone has logical intelligence and another person doesn't, the person with logical intelligence will consider the other stupid, or at least not *as* smart, even if they are smart in taking in information.

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Then there is Sirius. Sirius was brave enough to stand up for what he believed in. Even though his family was obsessed with blood and he was disowned for doing it, Sirius never cared about blood. He was able to look past that and realize it was wrong. Yes, James was the same way, he never judged based on blood, but we get the impression that was his family's doing. His father was in Gryffindor, and he was raised that way. Sirius was not. He was strong enough to break away from that mindset and become his own person.

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Agreed. I never said he was a coward.

Just a note, we're not sure that James had *no* prejudice toward muggleborns. I read this very interesting story once where Lily resented James simply because he said that he had more magic than her because he was pureblood. But we *do* know that he wasn't like the Blacks.

In any case, good points, Kask.

Emery

Beth: Excellent discussion. 5 points--rewarded

Here is JKR's description of Siruis:

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Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal philosophy, but he does not always live up to them. For instance, he says in "Goblet of Fire" that if you want to know what a man is really like, 'look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.' But Sirius loathes Kreacher, the house-elf he has inherited, and treats him with nothing but contempt. Similarly, Sirius claims that nobody is wholly good or wholly evil, and yet the way he acts towards Snape suggests that he cannot conceive of any latent good qualities there. Of course, these double standards exist in most of us; we might know how we ought to behave, but actually doing it is a different matter!

Sirius is brave, loyal, reckless, embittered and slightly unbalanced by his long stay in Azkaban. He has never really had the chance to grow up; he was around twenty-two when he was sent off to Azkaban, and has had very little normal adult life. Lupin, who is the same age, seems much older and more mature. Sirius's great redeeming quality is how much affection he is capable of feeling.

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And although not much is known about Lilly: we know she is a very good student, very well liked and very popular, thought to be very beautiful as well by many.

Moreover, she fell for James, who was, in a way, worse than Sirius when it came to being mean to others who they believed lower than themselves. Furthermore Sirius is better looking than James as described by most people and in the books as well as in the movies. So do I believe that in all likely hood it she could've fallen for Sirius? My answer is

YES

But in my opinion she is more likely to fall for Lupin, who is much like her, is a very studious student and seems to be quite mature at a younger age, of course there is the fact that he is a were wolf, but of course she did not know such a thing.
Even so, with such a vague description of the woman's character we could honestly say she could be with any type of person we wanted.

[QUOTE=Pafoo]*ponder* Nice post, Kask.[QUOTE]

Haha, thanks Pafoo.

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Yes, but we also know that it wasn't as if James and Lily were friends since the beginning. She was predjudiced against him from the very beginning due to James' teasing of her best friend. Now, I know that she never really hated him, but when I say hated, I mean resented. She probably resented James because of Severus.

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Yes, Lily probably disliked/resented James on a level, but we don't know anything about her relationship with Sirius or what she really thought. Sirius obviously didn't like her friend, but as Lily gets older, it doesn't even seem like she likes her best friend. And if Lily and Sirius did have something, it would have been later, after her friendship with her friend is over.

Lily may have even liked Sirius to make James angry. I'm sure if Lily was hanging out with his best friend, he wouldn't have been too happy. I just don't think that, if Lily was really as fair as she seemed, she'd completely hate Sirius for being friends with James, especially if she didn't hate James.

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Sirius was pretty much a background character. He was antagonizing, but he didn't instigate or begin it. James did. Therefore, he takes the blame. I imagine that Sirius was, on one hand, doing it because he wanted to do what James did, and on the other, he wanted to maintain reasonable doubt.

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I think that if Lily was really so fair, and not just targeting James, she would have blamed both of them. The only reason she targeted James was because she didn't like him, or wanted to appear that way.

I do agree that he was sort of a background character, but if she really despised Sirius (more than James), she'd have brought him into the scene, no matter what.

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This is what I consider a problem with JKR's writing. Never in the series does someone (Harry/Sirius) stop and think, "Hey, the people I hate are, wow, people too." What I'm saying is that Sirius barely even considers that the people he hates have *feelings* or *emotions*. And I'm not saying that Sirius isn't forgiving - he simply considers, like Harry, those he hate to be *inferior*, not equal. I don't quite remember saying anything about his capacity to forgive...

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I don't agree with this at all. I don't think it's a problem in JKR's writing, if anything, it'd be the character. In this, you mention Harry and Sirius. That's only two characters... so I think, if they really were like this, it'd be intentional. If it were JKR's writing, then every character would be like this, which we see, is not the case.

I feel like you are singling Harry and Sirius out. And I don't know what you mean by inferior. I think with Sirius, you are thinking of Kreacher. Yes, Sirius was not kind to Kreacher, but even Dumbledore says that it's because Kreacher represented the place that Sirius hated, the family that never accepted him. As for inferior, it makes me think intelligence, and I do not think for a moment Sirius thought Snape less able than him. We've seen Sirius hate people who generally deserved to be hated. But he never hated anyone unjustifiably -- Lord Voldemort, Peter, Kreacher, Death Eaters, Snape. With Snape, we don't know the other side of the story. We see them picking on Snape, but I doubt Snape was completely innocent.

With Harry, I think you're very wrong. Harry considers those he hates people. Why do you think he saved Peter's life? Saved Draco's life? He and Draco were never friends, but I don't think Harry once considered Draco inferior or less human than him. Peter was the reason Harry didn't have parents! But he saved his life! Harry even felt sympathy for Voldemort! He thinks of people more than many others in the series, even people he hates.

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If you're relating something about an old, currently dead friend to someone else, of course you're going to sugarcoat it. It's impossible to depend on Lupin's information about Sirius - we might as well believe everything Sirius says about Snape. I'm simply going off what has been shown in the books, and by *intelligent* I do not mean learning ability. I mean *using* that ability to reason. Snape/Lily/Hermione/Dumbledore have it. Sirius/Harry/Ron don't.

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Lupin said that Sirius was very intelligent in the third book, when Sirius was alive. Why would he sugarcoat it? And look at what Sirius, James, Peter, and Remus did? The Marauders Map? Those show a lot of intelligence. We have no real reason to believe that SIrius wasn't involved in it.

Plus, Snape never said Sirius wasn't smart.

Plus what Sirius says about Snape was true... We have no reason to believe that Snape was this amazing guy. Even Jo says that he wasn't great. He hated Harry for no reason. Sirius disliked him, but I still think what he said was true. He was nice to one person, which doesn't mean he was good to anyone else. He did become a Death Eater! We can't ignore other things about him.

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All I was saying is that, as there have been mentions of Lily's logical intelligence being on Hermione's level, and Sirius, from what we have seen of him (which is really all we can go by, as everyone who talks about him is prejudiced in some manner), he doesn't have it.

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If Lily had "logical intelligence" and Sirius didn't, that doesn't mean much. We've seen people (in the series) with what you call "logical intelligence" fall for others who you say don't.

And we don't know enough about Lily to deduct if she had logical intelligence or not. We know that she was good in Potions? So what? Harry is good at DADA; it doesn't mean he has logical intelligence (as you say he doesn't).

We know that Sirius could be rash, but we only have seen him act rash when Snape almost got killed. But we also know that Snape hated Sirius as Sirius hated Snape, and that Snape was trying to find out about Remus. Of course Sirius wouldn't care about Snape (just as Snape doesn't care that Sirius was innocent in PoA, he still wanted to send him to the Dementors).

After that, we only see him after being locked up for thirteen years. He never thought he was going to get out, so why not take risks after that? After being locked up for so long, what's the point of not living while you can?

Also, a lot of the time it was for Harry, the only person he had left.

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From my experience, if someone has logical intelligence and another person doesn't, the person with logical intelligence will consider the other stupid, or at least not *as* smart, even if they are smart in taking in information.

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I think that Sirius had to have had logical intelligence. And even Prof. McGonagall (if I'm correct) said that Sirius and James were both incredably intelligent. I think a person can be logical without always being apprehensive. Some just act, it doesn't mean he or she lacks intelligence or common sense.

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Agreed. I never said he was a coward.

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You said that he had nothing Lily would admire. I think that the courage to stand out from your whole family is something she would admire.

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Just a note, we're not sure that James had *no* prejudice toward muggleborns. I read this very interesting story once where Lily resented James simply because he said that he had more magic than her because he was pureblood. But we *do* know that he wasn't like the Blacks.

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Since he completely freaks out when Snape calls Lily a Mudblood, we can assume that there wasn't much prejudice. Honestly, if he was really prejudice, he wouldn't have married a Muggleborn, no matter what.


Also, opposites attact. So maybe Lily would have liked the way he was a rule-breaker and risk-taker. If Sirius didn't have "logical intelligence" and Lily did, maybe it worked. Or maybe he was very bright, handsome, funny and nice, and that was why she liked him.

*note: DH spoilers abound. Duh*

Well, it's taken a while for me to formulate an answer, but I'm not going to reply about my accusations about Harry and Sirius, suffice to say that I was probably wrong. I have not read the books in a very long time, so I plan to re-read them and decide. This, however, takes a large chunk out of my reply. In any case, I'm most likely wrong.

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Yes, Lily probably disliked/resented James on a level, but we don't know anything about her relationship with Sirius or what she really thought. Sirius obviously didn't like her friend, but as Lily gets older, it doesn't even seem like she likes her best friend. And if Lily and Sirius did have something, it would have been later, after her friendship with her friend is over.

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Well, again, the only indication of Lily and Sirius' friendship was the DH letter, which was very, very cordial, so I assume they could have been good friends. She adresses the letter to him like Hermione would, with the word Love at the end, so they were probably *good* friends. The plot bunnies abound.

However.

The issue about Lily not confronting Sirius can be a double edged sword - on one hand, it could say that she didn't want to say anything to him, but on the other hand, it could indicate that she just didn't give a niffler. Either way, it can be *almost* deduced that they were not friends in their fifth year. Of course, considering the Harry/Ginny ship, it's very possible to become romantically involved with someone you haven't known forever.

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Lily may have even liked Sirius to make James angry. I'm sure if Lily was hanging out with his best friend, he wouldn't have been too happy. I just don't think that, if Lily was really as fair as she seemed, she'd completely hate Sirius for being friends with James, especially if she didn't hate James.

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Again, a double edged sword. Sirius may have, at one point, become angry enough with James as to consider romantic involvement with Lily, but all signs point to him being *so* *insanely* loyal to James that even *if* Lily tried to make a move on him, he would quickly reject it. He *definitely* wouldn't tell James, though. Also, I've always imagined Remus as the one to be Lily's friend, but I guess it would be possible for Lily to have been friends with Sirius. I can imagine James using this to his advantage.

However.

(This is my new favorite word.)

If Sirius was as much of an "ignorant toe-rag" as James, she would definitely not wanted to have been friends with him. Or maybe she would have. The issue is simply that we haven't seen enough of the MWPP era. Which, I'll be the first to admit, is severely annoying. *nod*

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I think that if Lily was really so fair, and not just targeting James, she would have blamed both of them. The only reason she targeted James was because she didn't like him, or wanted to appear that way.

I do agree that he was sort of a background character, but if she really despised Sirius (more than James), she'd have brought him into the scene, no matter what.

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There is always the possibility that she isn't as fair as she actually seems, right? I mean, Snape makes friends with her, endures Slytherin ridicule for being friends with her, does everything possible to impress her, yet as soon as he gets mildly involved with the Dark Arts and accidentally calls her a "Mudblood" she cuts off their friendship.

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I don't agree with this at all. I don't think it's a problem in JKR's writing, if anything, it'd be the character. In this, you mention Harry and Sirius. That's only two characters... so I think, if they really were like this, it'd be intentional. If it were JKR's writing, then every character would be like this, which we see, is not the case.

I feel like you are singling Harry and Sirius out. And I don't know what you mean by inferior. I think with Sirius, you are thinking of Kreacher. Yes, Sirius was not kind to Kreacher, but even Dumbledore says that it's because Kreacher represented the place that Sirius hated, the family that never accepted him. As for inferior, it makes me think intelligence, and I do not think for a moment Sirius thought Snape less able than him. We've seen Sirius hate people who generally deserved to be hated. But he never hated anyone unjustifiably -- Lord Voldemort, Peter, Kreacher, Death Eaters, Snape. With Snape, we don't know the other side of the story. We see them picking on Snape, but I doubt Snape was completely innocent.

With Harry, I think you're very wrong. Harry considers those he hates people. Why do you think he saved Peter's life? Saved Draco's life? He and Draco were never friends, but I don't think Harry once considered Draco inferior or less human than him. Peter was the reason Harry didn't have parents! But he saved his life! Harry even felt sympathy for Voldemort! He thinks of people more than many others in the series, even people he hates.

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Here was my mindset when I wrote this: I had just realized that I was a *lot* like Sirius. Smart, able to spout off bytes of personal wisdom yet not apply them to his life, and too quick to act. And, being a teen, I'm going through a large bout of self-loathing, which I find very normal for the average teen and I'm almost out of. In any case, my feelings for Sirius were not my actual opinion of him but what I see as problems with myself. Therefore, I'm going to re-read the series before commenting. In any case, you're right - I *was* singling Harry and Sirius out. Not because I was right about them, but because I see them as the best reflections of myself.

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Plus what Sirius says about Snape was true... We have no reason to believe that Snape was this amazing guy. Even Jo says that he wasn't great. He hated Harry for no reason. Sirius disliked him, but I still think what he said was true. He was nice to one person, which doesn't mean he was good to anyone else. He did become a Death Eater! We can't ignore other things about him.

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I'm a Snape-lover, oddly, so of course I'm a bit prejudiced. Sorry, I'll try to put that aside. In any case, I know Snape wasn't an amazing guy. He had a tiny sadistic streak in him, loved to mentally torture those he hated and occasionally physically harm them, as seen in Snape's Worst Memory (I think the fact that he hurt James was what severed his and Lily's relationship). However, I'll quote JKR:

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Similarly, Sirius claims that nobody is wholly good or wholly evil, and yet the way he acts towards Snape suggests that he cannot conceive of any latent good qualities there.

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So, I agree, Snape isn't this amazingly good guy (an amazing character, yes). However, he isn't PUR EBUL, as Sirius depicts him as. Again, he sheltered Harry, basically saved his life (without his appeal for Lily's life Harry would be six feet under), and acted as a spy for Dumbledore, a man who basically controlled him. So, no, Sevvy isn't amazingly good, but he's not the pure evil Sirius thinks he is. Of course, Snape hasn't been anything to Sirius *but* evil, so I suppose that old Padfoot has some reason to hate Snape.

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If Lily had "logical intelligence" and Sirius didn't, that doesn't mean much. We've seen people (in the series) with what you call "logical intelligence" fall for others who you say don't.

And we don't know enough about Lily to deduct if she had logical intelligence or not. We know that she was good in Potions? So what? Harry is good at DADA; it doesn't mean he has logical intelligence (as you say he doesn't).

We know that Sirius could be rash, but we only have seen him act rash when Snape almost got killed. But we also know that Snape hated Sirius as Sirius hated Snape, and that Snape was trying to find out about Remus. Of course Sirius wouldn't care about Snape (just as Snape doesn't care that Sirius was innocent in PoA, he still wanted to send him to the Dementors).

After that, we only see him after being locked up for thirteen years. He never thought he was going to get out, so why not take risks after that? After being locked up for so long, what's the point of not living while you can?

Also, a lot of the time it was for Harry, the only person he had left.

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Again, teenage self questioning. Ignore and proceed. =]

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You said that he had nothing Lily would admire. I think that the courage to stand out from your whole family is something she would admire.

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I always imagined Lily as someone who hated idiotic bravery as much as cowardliness. I'm not sure, though.

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Since he completely freaks out when Snape calls Lily a Mudblood, we can assume that there wasn't much prejudice. Honestly, if he was really prejudice, he wouldn't have married a Muggleborn, no matter what.

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As we've seen, people can change from year one to year five. In year one, Draco's a bastard, but a common garden-variety bastard at that. At year five he's going to become a Death Eater. At year one, Regulus Black was some kid intoxicated with pureblood mania. By year five, he was a Death Eater. Harry, on his first year, was a scrawny child with no sense of who he was and hopeless optimism. By year five he was a very powerful teen who could see into the mind of the darkest wizard alive. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that, while James wasn't infested with pureblood mania, he could have thought that purebloods were more powerful that muggleborns - or maybe not. I don't know. It's simply speculation.

Amazing post, Kask. I love this discussion. *nod*

Emery

I think the main flaw with your theory is Sirius's intense loyalty. We know Sirius was very loyal to James, that they were like brothers.
Obviously, James liked Lily for a period of time, and I don't think Sirius would ever "steal" her.
I just think it's OOC for Sirius to date the girl that his best friend is madly in love with.

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I think the main flaw with your theory is Sirius's intense loyalty. We know Sirius was very loyal to James, that they were like brothers.
Obviously, James liked Lily for a period of time, and I don't think Sirius would ever "steal" her.
I just think it's OOC for Sirius to date the girl that his best friend is madly in love with.

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Personally speaking, I can imagine a situation where James dated someone else to make Lily jealous, but Sirius didn't realize it and thought that he was done pursuing her, in which case, he might have a go.

*nod*

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- Sirius would need to have a serious attitude change. I think that the only way this could be pulled off is if he changed enough *for* Lily, that when she died he went back to being old Sirius. I have yet to find a S/L fic on MNFF, but I've heard them discussed before.

- Lily would need to have an attitude change, also. I've always imagined Lily, out of all the Marauders, despising Sirius the most. The problem is that we don't know when this happened, whether it was after Lily and James became friends or after they got married.

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I think Sirius is a lot like James; they're both arrogant, they both like to make fun. I think that the Sirius/Lily pairing is (was) quite possible, because if in the end, Lily got married with James, why couldn't it happen with Sirius?

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I think Sirius is a lot like James; they're both arrogant, they both like to make fun. I think that the Sirius/Lily pairing is (was) quite possible, because if in the end, Lily got married with James, why couldn't it happen with Sirius?

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I think they were alike in basic ways (i.e. arrogance and humour), but they were different in so many little ways. I think James knew what he wanted from life. He was a spoiled kid, and he had a good life. So one day he met this girl and knew that she was the one (not to sound cheesy or anything ;) ). In that way, I think James knew his mind well. But Sirius obviously dated around a lot. He didn't even seem to be really looking for the right girl. I see Sirius as a bit more reckless. I don't think James would've lost his temper (or however the prank came about) and told Snape how to get into the tunnel, where he knew full well that there was a werewolf.

But I also think that James was more of an optimist. James never gave up on dating Lily, did he? But I think Sirius, were he in James's position with Lily, would've been slightly more realistic. He might've realised that Lily wasn't about to fall for him any time soon.

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I think the main flaw with your theory is Sirius's intense loyalty. We know Sirius was very loyal to James, that they were like brothers.

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I agree here. Sirius, like most other Gryffindors we know of, was very loyal. He would never steal Lily away from James—especially when James made it so obvious that he was in love with her. It wasn't like James was trying to hide it.

But one situation I find entirely possible, (which is the reason I'm writing a fic about it :o *glaringly obvious hint for everyone to read Unrequited*) is for Sirius to have an unrequited love for Lily. Just falling in love with her, and having to learn some major self-control to not tell everyone about it. I can see that happening. I think that it's possible.

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Personally speaking, I can imagine a situation where James dated someone else to make Lily jealous, but Sirius didn't realize it and thought that he was done pursuing her, in which case, he might have a go.

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That would make a great fic! But anyway, the one flaw I see in this plan is that I think that if James dated someone else for the sole purpose of trying to make Lily jealous, he would've let Sirius in on the secret. They were inseparable. It's not like the Ron/Lavender/Hermione situation (i.e. Ron didn't tell Harry that he was dating Lavender just to make Hermione jealous—even though he was), because Ron was in denial of his feelings, but James wasn't. So I think James would've told Sirius about it, which would cause Sirius to not go after Lily.

One situation I think might work is if James's die-hard optimism finally—well, died, and he realised that he'd been chasing after Lily for years and she still hadn't felt anything for him. Then maybe he would date another girl just to see if he could feel "right" with someone other than Lily. If that happened, I could see him telling Sirius that he was giving up. Then Sirius would be willing to try and win Lily, where James had failed.

Let me just say that if these books took place in Marauder Era, and we didn't know that James ended up with Lily, I would be a hard-core Lily/Sirius shipper. But I think I might be anyway. :rolleyes:

Beth: Good ideas and points. 5 points! - awarded