NEWT Level Course

[Phoenix5225]

What class do you think someone would take to learn Legilimency and Occulemency? I'm certain it would be a NEWT level course, but would it be its own class, or would it be integrated into something else?

Thanks!

[superstar]

According to the HP-Lexicon (here), it says that Legilimency is not a branch normally taught at Hogwarts. However, I think that if a student wants to learn it, they would get private lessons much like Harry got with Snape. And I don't think they would be allowed to tell the whole school, either. Maybe.

I hope I may have helped.

P.S.- It says that it would not be normally taught at Hogwarts, then says that not in OWL level anyways. If that is the case, it may be taught in NEWT level classes. It might be in the curriculum of DADA, or it may be a seperate branch of it's own. But I don't think that would be the case...

[SlytherinTears]

Well, I was under the impression that both of those skills are learned by one's self, in his/her mind.

[AurorKeefy]

I would have said that if it was to be taught in one of the Hogwarts subjects, it would almost certainly be Defence Against the Dark Arts, Occlumency being defence by it's definition.

However, when we first here about Occlumency, Snape describes it as being an "obscure" branch of magic. Snape is - both according to Lupin and from our own knowledge - a superb Occlumens, but if Professor McGonagall or Flitwick were capable of performing it remotely well then surely Professor Dumbledore would have set up lessons with them instead.

Other than Snape, and Dumbledore himself, Occlumency is mentioned regarding very few people in the wizarding world. Only Bellatrix - who of course teaches Draco, Voldemorte, Slughorn and Grindlewald are mentioned, and the skills of the latter two are only speculated about. It's worth noting that all are Slytherins (except Grindlewald, though I think we can suggest he might well have been Slytherin had he gone to Hogwarts) of potent magical ability. Of the more potent non-Slytherins we know, none show any aptitude for it except for Dumbledore. In part this is doubtless because the learning for such skills is passed down by people within Slytherin's ranks. Yet this overlaps with the fact that you need to have a certain mindset to accomplish the two successfully. Cunning over bravery, if you will.

So, what you have is an obscure branch of magic that is taught by advanced Slytherin's and Dark Wizards to advanced Slytherins of the next generation. I think we can call Dumbledore the exception to the rule - unless his own family were actually Slytherin's ("He learnt secrecy at his mother's knee."). So if you want to learn it, you will probably need a very willing and smart Slytherin to pass it on to you. The way it is handled in OotP does not suggest that books would be any use, and it is so specialised and one to one focused that it is unlikely there would ever be a class for it. Aside from which, while it's handy for Snape and Potter to have, it's not a talent you'd generally want in your schools.

It should be pointed out, of course, that I have been accused of being rather cynical in the past, so it might be best to wait for further answers if that line of thinking is awkward for your story.

[Stubbornly_appeared]

I'm pretty sure that it's not something that would be taught in a class. It seems to be a pretty difficult and obscure skill, and there isn't an extreme need for it.

Unless it was a time of war where it really needed to be taught, I don't see it in a class. You can do whatever you want, if you need it for a fic, but it may not be extremely realistic.

The only, only time I could see it as being remotely possible would be in Seventh Year, NEWT-Level DADA, particually if they had already covered all other needed things.

What a rant.

[Phoenix5225]

Here's a thought - because I need it to be covered in something, even if it's only a basic knowledge. What if it was taught up until Voldy became powerful, meaning people of Lucius's generation might have covered it, however briefly?

[Indigoenigma]

That sounds fairly plausible.
However, it might have been even further back (ie the war with Grindlewald). However, I think that we're correct in assuming that it was taught at NEWT level DADA at some point in the past. Although, I would assume that it wouldn't actually be taught per se, more like covered in a textbook. Anyone who was then serious about it or had the aptitude for it could be taught privately.

~Kelly

[dragonwings]

My guess would be that they were taught it in theory, sort of like Umbridge's classes. (If you could call them such.) A teacher, probably either DADA or even maybe Charms, would cover the basics such as the spell work for Legilimency and tell them what they need to know about closing their minds to it. I don't think that it could be taught as a practical class with students pairing up to practice since its a rather dangerous subject and a teacher could never really supervise closely enough. And there's a risk that a student's feelings could get hurt if an embaressing memory was exposed. It would be awesome if there were Legilimency/Occlumency classes though!

[cmwinters]

I am personally of the opinion that Occlumency isn't taught because I think the Ministry considers Legilimency a branch of Dark Magic, and that the only real way to determine if someone is succeeding as an Occlumens is to practice Legilimency against them, so I dont' think that Occlumency is taught at Hogwarts at all.

Further, the only ones we know of who have even what passes for a vague understanding of the topic are Dumbledore, Bellatrix, Draco, Snape, the Dark Lord, and Harry. Lupin and Black clearly don't understand how to do either or they'd have taught Harry either before Snape started or after he stopped.

Snape is more or less Lucius' generation, and he calls Occlumency an "obscure but useful branch of magic". That particular terminology, to me, seems to indicate that it wasn't taught at Hogwarts at all, at least not in recent memory. POSSIBLY during the Dark Lord's time, but I sincerely doubt Snape ever took any formal training. And here's why:

Snape, when tasked with teaching Harry, does a rather abysmal job of explaining it to Harry. Granted, he and Harry argue at cross-purposes *a lot*, but this is a different kind of issue. During all of Order, the ONLY person consistently honest with him is Snape, the ONLY person who consistently answers his questions is Snape, but when it gets to this particular issue, Snape seems to simply not understand Harry's question. Harry just doesn't *get* Occlumency; he asks Snape for the specifics of how to employ it and Snape's answer amounts to, quite frankly, a rather lame "just do it".

And I think "just do it" is probably perfectly sensible to Snape as an answer. I think he can close his mind as easily as he can pick up a fork, because that's just his personality. As a result, I don't think Snape really understands Harry's actual question, and Harry certainly doesn't understand what Harry probably thinks amounts to Snape's obstinate refusal to answer him. And this doesn't strike me as the kind of difficulty Snape would have if he were actually taught in a formal setting.