Sirius and the Prank

[R_Ravenclaw]

I'm not entirely sure it was stated in the books, but does anyone know which year it was that Sirius told Snape that he should go under the Whomping Willow and through the passage? You know, the prank that almost got Snape killed if it weren't for James? If she didn't set up a date, doesn't it seem like something that would've happened in sixth or seventh year?

Thanks in advance for your help!

~Alison

[megan_lupin]

Sixth year has always been the mostly agreed upon time for the Prank to take place, I believe. As for when in the Sixth Year, I'm not quite sure.

However, I don't think it'd go into Seventh Year, because Snape mentions in PoA that Sirius "showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen" or something to that effect when he's talking to Dumbledore.

I'd have to check PoA again to be sure if Remus or Sirius never mentions a date in the Shrieking Shack scene.

~Megan

[cmwinters]

This is such a pet peeve for me.

Sirius was sixteen when he pulled this prank, but we do not know his birthdate. He had to have been born after September 1st the 1959 and before August 31st 1960, going by the most recent timeline in the story, but bear in mind this changes rather frequently. According to previous math, James & Lily should have been born in March and January 1959, respectively. Snape is only 3 weeks older than Lily, and a couple of months older than James.

Anyway, for the sake of argument, let's go with 1960 for Snape, James & Lily's birthdates. For Sirius to have been sixteen when the prank was pulled, without knowing Sirius' actual birthdate, it could have happened almost any time during fifth or sixth year. It most definitely did not happen seventh year.

It had been pretty well established prior to last month that it took place in sixth year. And then Deathly Hallows said it took place before the OWLs, which is not something I personally believe, but I suppose it depends on how canonically compliant you want to be.

[TheBlackSister]

James' and Lily's birthyear is 1960 (Godric's Hollow, DH). I've always saw the prank in the sixth year.

[Amber0_o]

Apparently the Werewolf 'Prank' took place before SWM, which was their fifth year. So I guess it was early fifth year...

[R_Ravenclaw]

Apparently the Werewolf 'Prank' took place before SWM, which was their fifth year. So I guess it was early fifth year...

Um, this is probably a stupid question, but should I know what SWM is...?

Anyway, so it's fifth year?

[Amber0_o]

Oh, sorry. I thought everyone used the abbriviations. :o SWM is Snape's Worst Memory, or the chapter when Harry saw James and Sirius bullying Snape back in OotP.

[cmwinters]

Apparently the Werewolf 'Prank' took place before SWM, which was their fifth year. So I guess it was early fifth year...

That is according to Deathly Hallows.

Normally, the final book in the series would be the final word on a topic. However, that scene is just one of the many scenes in Deathly Hallows that is completely non-compliant with previous material. This is why I mentioned that the writer has to decide how canonically compliant to be, and in some cases, pick a book to be compliant to.

(You *really* do not want to get me started on the rest of them. I have a list. It's 3500 words long, last time I bothered to count, and I've added some since then . . . )

[R_Ravenclaw]

Sorry about that—I'm really bad about figuring out abbreviations the first time :o It took me MONTHS to realise what MWPP stood for :rolleyes:

Okay, so I'll put it in my fic as before SWM (I'm totally going to use that all the time now!) unless anyone has evidence proving otherwise...

*looks around and waits for response*

Still, it would be SO much easier to put it in my fic as during sixth year or at least after the OWLs incident...

[Amber0_o]

If it would make it easier for you plot I would just put it in their sixth year and add an AU warning.

[cmwinters]

God only knows what made me think of this just now, but Red Hen has an essay here (http://www.redhen-publications.com/WerewolfCaper.html) that places it after Snape's Worst Memory.

Remember, Lily started going out with James "after he had deflated his head a bit," and James's metaphorical head was most assuredly larger than the rest of his body when he tortured Snape in front of a crowd of onlookers.

We're given to believe that James saving Snape from Lupin was a turning point for James.

As a result, the Lexicon has long since put the "The Werewolf Caper" in sixth year.

So again, I think you're safe with going with either, but not seventh. You would probably not even have to add an AU warning at that point, although you might want to include an "Author's Note" explaining your reasoning.

[Amber0_o]

But the problem with that idea is that we assume that James really did change. I think it is clear, in light of Severus and Lily's friendship, that Lily had a crush on James. Why else would she focus on James, and ignore Snape? She could have at least let him down, but instead she spent her time bantering.

This leads me to believe that she was able to look past a lot of James' pranking, and he didn't really change. However, this is simply my own interpretation of the events.

[megan_lupin]

I would recommend putting it in Sixth Year, personally, as that has long been considered by many to be the most likely time for the Prank to happen.

I would, however, add a "Book 7 Disregarded" warning, rather than an AU, because it's really just that one scene in DH that hints that the Prank occurred before Snape's Worst Memory, and, like cmwinters mentioned, there are several discrepancies with time lines and continuity between DH and the rest of the series and whatnot.

And until Jo comes out and addresses these kinds of things for sure, we just have to make do with it.

~Megan

[Ryan The Wizard]

I believe that it was in the sixth year because Snape said that James was the one who saved him and got him away from the tree. Snape believes that James only saved him to protect his own skin, but I think James saved him because he was starting to be a better person. Since we know Lily and James got together around the beginning of their seventh year, that means James must've been trying to be a better person in the year before. Therefore I think it was late in his sixth year.

[StaceyLC]

I agree with everyone else; put in in sixth year, because Snape did flat out say that Sirius was sixteen at the time, and I remember kind of doing a mental double take when I read that part in DH. IMO, it's wrong. Jo is allowed to make mistakes, and sorry if I sound arrogant or something, but... I really do think that part was wrong. Jo said she changed her mind about the character who couldn't do magic, but later in life did. So... maybe she'll come out and say later that she messed up on that bit.

Technically, since Jo wrote it, it's canon. Just like I have to accept that Harry being a horcrux is canon (:mad: ). But, since it seems to be a gray area of the time line, I would say you could still get away with putting it in sixth year.

[R_Ravenclaw]

Can anyone point the way to the passage in DH that hints (or says) that the prank happened before the OWLs thing? That's be great, because I cannot remotely remember :rolleyes:

~Alison

[cmwinters]

It was in Snape's memories, I guess that'd be the Prince's Tale chapter. Supposedly right before he called her Mudblood, but I think that's incredibly unlikely.

[R_Ravenclaw]

I just looked and found where it said it. It was supposed to be only a couple days before OWLs. That really doesn't make much sense to me, but oh well. It's canon now and I should probably go along with it... But who knows if I'll actually decide to ;)

[StaceyLC]

The timeline is very screwed up. Just like that scene in HBP where Trelawney tells Harry that she SAW Professor Snape being thrown out of the room, which would mean that he heard all the prophecy, not half. That never got cleared up either.

I'm sure she'll put it right in the end. ::shrugs::

[R_Ravenclaw]

The timeline is very screwed up. Just like that scene in HBP where Trelawney tells Harry that she SAW Professor Snape being thrown out of the room, which would mean that he heard all the prophecy, not half.

I know, that always bothered me! It's not like she would have come out of her prophesy in the middle of it, so she either 1 wouldn't have noticed Snape or 2 Snape heard the whole thing and only reported half.

One of the things about the timeline of this prank thing that really makes no sense, is that would James and Sirius really have been stupid enough to think, "Wow, Snape just learned our biggest secret about two days ago! Why don't we go and publicly humiliate him!"after OWLs?

I mean, no matter how arrogant they were, that is just SO not logical. I honestly can't see anyone doing that. But oh well...

[StaceyLC]

It isn't logical, you're absolutely right. James and Sirius (or at least Sirius) were lucky not to be expelled. It would be very idiotic to pull a prank like that on him right after Sirius tried to kill him with a werewolf and a psycho tree. Dumbledore would have blown his top.

Plus, as someone else said, this could have been James' turning point that Lupin mentioned... he said that Lily started dating James in seventh year, once his "head had deflated a bit". It doesn't sound like the old James to do something "heroic" like that. James probably didn't change over night. It was gradual, and could have started with him saving Snape. And, if you want to go in that direction, it could even be the reason Lily started dating him at all. Snape, after all, was Lily's best friend.

[MistressOfTime]

While it sounds more reasonable that the prank took place in sixth year, it is entirely possible that it DID take place fifth year before O.W.L.'s. This is what confuses a lot of people in the fandom, because Harry has a summer birthday. For example, if Harry is 13, then he is 13 for his entire third year, until he turns 14 in July during the summer holidays. However, what about those kids who have birthdays during the school year? To enter as a first year at Hogwarts, you MUST be 11 years old on the first day of term, even if your birthday is September 2nd. We see this with Hermione. She is nearly one year older than Harry, because she has a September birthday. This means that by the end of September in their third year, Hermione was 14.

Now if you've deciphered that above paragraph at all (I suck at explaining things) then you see it's possible if Sirius has a birthday between September and May, that he turned 16 his fifth year, and played the prank on Snape before O.W.L.'s.

Hope this helped shed some light on the subject. :)

[megan_lupin]

I don't think the main discrepancy with when the Prank took place has to do with Sirius being 16 at the time. Due to the dates of James and Lily's birthdays shown in DH, we can at least conclude that Sirius's birthday falls anywhere from September of 1959 to August of 1960, for him to be in the same year as James and the rest of them. (The same thing goes for Peter as well, but he's not the topic of conversation here.)

I think one of the big things that people have a problem with it coming before O.W.Ls is like what Stacey said earlier. There is no logic in having the events of Snape's Worst Memory take place *after* the Whomping Willow incident, especially with the ramifications that many feel more than likely came from that. (While it's evident that there was no lasting expulsion or something, it seems reasonable to think that there would be some character changes going on -- in James, at the very least. Also, wouldn't it also be reasonable to think that the friendship of the Marauders would have had to overcome this in some way? Rather than just, "Oh, look what happened. No problem" and wipe it all off?)

Finally, while Sirius and James both might have been very arrogant, arrogance does not equal stupidity or lack of logic. And pulling the stunts in Snape's Worst Memory after that of the Whomping Willow incident is nothing *but* a lack of logic.

~Megan